7th Natural cycle IVF(w/o meds) and finally BFP!

[Briss]

Subaru, i am so sorry to hear about your loss. what a terrible tragedy, I am truly sorry you have to live through this.

dovkav, really sorry about your BFN, I was hoping to hear some good news. what DPO are you now? could it be too early? do you have a follow up app with the clinic? this is your 3rd transfer, I am thinking there might be implantation issues. have you had your uterus checked? maybe hysteroscopy? Also, I think your blocked tubes have not been confirmed? maybe you could do HSG and if they are open you do not even need IVF cos you have good sperm. Sorry maybe I am not very helpful just trying to through in some ideas. I just think there might be something going on that's actually preventing the conception.

 

[dovkav123]

19dpo2dt is today.

Yes, Briss I want to take a break from IVF. Someone tells me for two months now that I should Do HSG and try for a natural on January.
1.Logic thinking, let me know if I am right. Ovarian punctures and I had 6 of them, the thickness and the force of the needle, can it break apart my scars from the ovary and tube? Could it be that my ovaries are in good possition now and my tubes are loose and when the egg is dropped it travels to the tube?
During one egg retreival I felt really hard that my ovary moved when the needle went in...
Could it be that I need only to flush my tubes?

2.If i have implantation problem, this theory won't help.
Maybe taking out my egg and fertilising in the tube, and bringing back to uterus, my body recognise this embryo as a stranger. Maybe I have a media reaction to the liquid were embryo is delivered to my uterus.
I do have acne which goes crazy when I eat sugar. Not fruit, not carbs. Only Refined sugar. Acne is a sign of bodies inflammation. I am on anti-inflamm. diet and no sugar diet...But this Christmas I ate lots of cookies and I don't have any acne. Vaginal progesterone, I beleave is helping. I guess preganancy will cure my acne.

3.I have never tried to conceive naturally with progesterone supplement. I was a lit bit low in my LH faze before.

 

[Briss]

1. I think HSG is the best idea and it will tell you whether your tubes are open and also if there is anything in your uterus that may prevent implantation.

I personally do not think IVF and puncturing ovaries can do any good to anyone. I look at it as some sort of damage that we voluntary incur because we tried everything else except for IVF and nothing else worked. I just accepted it as necessary evil.

2. implantation problems are very different: it can be something in your uterus or immune issues. HSG should reveal if anything is not right with your lining but you would need steroids if you have any immune issues.

i personally do not think that anti-inflamm. diet or no sugar diet or any other "lifestyle change" makes any difference to fertility. If you had a totally wrong lifestyle like was a smoker, drunk lots of alcohol and ate fast food all the time and then suddenly changed it to fruit and veg etc that would certainly improve your chances but as far as I know you are already very healthy so none of it matters in my view. I am sorry if I sound negative it's just that I've done years of healthy fertility living and am now finally coming to terms with the fact that it did not bring us any closer to having a baby.

3. if your LH is shorter than 12 days without progesterone or if you have spotting in TWW, it might make sense to take synthetic progesterone. You could also do 21 day blood test to check you most recent levels if you are not sure. I personally hated synthetic progesterone, side effects were quite bad.

 

[Electricat]

Hello, girls - sorry I've not replied. I have house guests and haven't been able to go online.
Belated Merry Christmas and Happy NY to you all =)

Dov...sorry it didn't work You must feel numb by now. I really hope you are able to keep your spirit up and not give up.
Since I'm struggling with my lining I want to ask how thick yours was at ET...if it was plump and fine it goes to show that I'm not out of the woods if I just get my lining up.
Darn little beans don't abide to our wishes!

I'm starting down regging on CD21 (in 5 days). Then I will do Progynova until lining is thick enough.
I really have no faith in this..only because Dr. Google has not given me any good results from it. All I've found online is that the Progynova pills didn't work towards lining.
The nurse at the clinic was very positive and all but guaranteed it would work, but she don't know my history (which is the bit that annoys me about the place - they don't know who they're talking to and seem to give a standard protocol to their patients, not adapted to individual needs).
After she told me about how this would work, she asked me if I had a lining problem ---- I was like, What? She didn't know I had a lining problem??

Sigh - I will do it anyway, since it will be my only chance. If nothing happens to my lining we will just have to dispose of our four frozen babies because we are not continuing after this

There is one thing I'm thinking about though, all though it's probably nothing to worry about. What if we happened to do it naturally this cycle? (I haven't temped because of travelling and house guests, so I don't know my DPO, but we have BD'd). I'm starting DR shots on CD21 - too early for a HPT to show...so if I am, are the shots harmful to a potential pregnancy?
They didn't tell us to abstain...

Oh, well - back to the house guests.

Ladies..

 

[dovkav123]

I am sorry about your lining, electrical. Maybe your treatment should take longer than a month to see the good results. If that won't work, how about surrogate?
My lining is always good. CD8 is 8mm, during ET 11mm.
I had hysteroscopy in June, everything was fine.
I still think maybe the sperm is not perfect chromosomally? Aging does a lot, 50 y/o has more exposure to oxidative stress, enviromental radiation, compare to 30y/o. Still they may not be healthy. after centrifuge his sperm was 7mil, motility 30%, 5% morfology.

I found this on website "Shape is important because it correlates with the sperm's genetic content. A higher number of misshapen sperm equals a greater potential for genetic abnormalities." I guess this confirms that my hubbies sperm could be still OK the average morfology should be 4%.

Briss,
Have you checked your hubbies testosterone levels? It has lots of to do with sperm counts and sex.
drive. is he on antibiotics? How about his prostate tests?


My LH is always 16-17 long, but I have had spottings before my period. My progesterone was 8.6 on CD21, they want to see it 10. Old clinic told me it's OK. The new one diagnosed me with corpus lutheal deficiency. And RE told me it is not enough to treat a second part of the cycle with progesterone. You need to treat an entire cycle. She was suprised to see my mature eggs after ER without any treatment.
I chose IVF cos we never knew how long we'll stay in Germany. I wanted to get preggo faster and the prices are reasonable here. We wanted to leave earlier, but my father in-law got sick and he passed away a week ago, and we still don't know what we are doing next...
Still spotting today and going for a blood test..

 

[dovkav123]

My AF came in the evening after the blood test. Even I was on the progesterone. Estrogen was 65, progesterone 5.
My beta .6
My eyes are too dry to cry, really, I feel numb and cold.
My hubby just wants to try again.
I want to take a break from IvF.
Check my uterus with a contrast dye. Support LF with progesterone. And just BD.....

I talked to my friend, she succeeded her 4th IVF with FET, assitant hatching and heparin.
Maybe we should try one more time with heparin.

I am calling my RE for a short talk tomorrow.

I didn't go for beta for nothing...
I also checking my folic acid levels.
APA- antiphospholipid antibody has to do with endo
APS- antiphospholipid syndrome also has to do with a blood clot disorder

Ladies, cheers for a New Year! I deserve a drink or more!
Briss, you're on 2ww. You still can have a glass. I hope you'll have good news soon. Hope and pray.

 

[dovkav123]

Electrical,
I found info how to improve endometrium

Treatment of thin endometrium
To improve uterine blood flow which may boost endometrial development, low-dose aspirin (Weckstein et al., 1997) and vaginal sildenafil (Sher and Fisch, 2002) were suggested in cases of RIF with thin endometrium. Many freeze all embryos when the endometrium is less than 7 mm and transfer them after stimulation with high-dose estrogens. Vaginal administration of micronized estradiol to maximize estrogenic effect (Tourgeman et al., 2001) or antifibrotic treatment with pentoxifylline and high-dose vitamin E (Ledee-Bataille et al., 2002) has been shown to increase PR in cases with a thin endometrium.

https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/12/3036.full

 

[Briss]

Happy New year, ladies! i hope 2014 will bring us that we desire.

Electricat, lining is not everything but if we could get your lining to 11-13 mm it will improve your chances dramatically. I do not know much about Progynova unfortunately but I am sure there must be something that can help. I totaly share your frustration when docs do not bother to read your history. when I showed up for EC and there was only one follicle on the left it almost felt like I was making it up that there must be two and only after EC the doc read my history and confirmed that one egg must have ovulated early and it does seem like they do not learn from the previous failed cycle that i tend to O early. anyway, thinking about it makes me angry and I am determined to stay calm cos who knows what's ahead I need my sanity.

it makes me sad to read that you want to dispose of your four frozen babies if nothing works out this cycle. lining is a serious problem and I doubt very much that one cycle can fix it. I think you need a serious treatment which may take a few months. I might be wrong but I also doubt IVF clinic can solve this problem. I would think it needs to be a specialised doc outside of IVF world. It's a gynecological problem. But let's see if Progynova can do the trick first.

dovkav, it's really hard to say what the problem is. if your DH's sperm has chromosomal abnormality you would have at least one chemical or mc I think. of cause at 50 sperm quality is not great but your DH has a very good count and morphology so he must still have some very goods ones in there. you are right, the average morfology should be at least 4%. we had chemical with my DH's morphology of 1%...

My Dh's bloods were:

FSH 2.6 (normal)
LH 3.2 (normal)
testosterone 18.1 (normal)
SHBG 71 (high, normal is 16-55)
testosterone/SHBG ratio 25.5 (lower side of normal)
prolactin 207 (normal)

The urologist said his hormones were normal but clearly SHBG is outside the normal range I am so hoping that's the reason for low sperm count and that his genetic testing will come back normal.

The urologist did not think my DH has any obstruction so as long as we can rule out any genetic issues he could try and get hubby on various random treatments in the hope that something will work.

I am very sorry about your negative beta and AF. your progesterone dropped while you were still on synthetic progesterone. I know it happens a lot in IVF cycle but it's so surprising. I has spotting but my AF did not come until I stopped synthetic progesterone. but than I was only 17 DPO.

what does heparin do?

I had quite a few glasses this TWW because after seeing the urologist it just became clear that we do not stand a chance on our own. his most recent test came with 0% morphology and DH carries on with his beer it's hopeless. he promised he will stop in the new year though.

 

[bettybee1]

Dov- am
Sorry about your cycle are you not wiling too make more eggs !?

I know your embies were good on day2 but a lot of the time they stop growing after day3 that's why blasts are good

You have had 3 transfers through your ivfs so that's like 1.5 with normal ivf right ?

I still think your in with a winning chance but natural ivf can take a lot longer !

I would defo maybe increase progestrone take estrogen & 75mg aspirin maybe not heprin straight away unless u have problem !


Curious how much money does natural ivf cost where u live x

 

[cali_kt]

Hi Dov!! I made it over!! I think I may need to move to Germany. Over here in the states...it is ridiculous!!!

 

[DBZ34]

dovkav- I'm sorry IVF didn't work for you this time. I'm also sorry for your loss. I read up there that your father-in-law passed away recently. I hope you and your DH are doing well.

I can understand why you want to take a break. Do what you need to do. TTC is so hard. I'm glad you're continuing to get things tested to find answers. I so want this for you. I hope 2014 will be your year!

 

[dovkav123]

Briss, tough time is for you now. I am sorry. AF came again. I am very proud of you that you're staying strong and give super attention to your hubby.
You did find some problems in your hubbies blood work, I hope urologist will find a treatment.
"Heparin is not only anticoagulant. it is involved in the adhesion of blastocyst to the endometriumepithelium and subsequent invasion"( Fiedler and Wurfel 2001)

DBZ,
I am wishing a sticky year also. I know a healthy eggy is waiting for us all!

bettybee,
I am not ready for more eggs yet. I really need to find out about my implantation problem. If I have 3 blasts and if they don't take it, I'll be scared emotionally and physically.
Endometrium Biopsy? Transfer one blast? Assisted hatching.
My antiphospholipid syndrome results came back negative.
Sometimes i wished to have a positive test or even a miscarriage in order to get treatment and go forward.
Maybe I have some kind of genetic defect in my firtility. My sister, my cousin and my grandfather's two siblings didn't have children. If we dig deep enough we may find the reason.
Natural IVF is reasonable here. In previous clinic I have paid 425 euros in the new one 1000 euros.

cali_kit, thanks for stopping by. If you're interested I can recommend you a clinic here in Germany. First I want to get lucky..I couldn't find you on facebook. Can you invite me?

 

[Briss]

dovkav, I hope you do not have any genetic issues but you can do a blood test that can show any chromosomal defects that may effect fertility and rule that out if you are worried. it's possible that the problem is with your DH, even though his sperm appears to be fine it may be chromosomally abnormal due to age so the embryo just stops growing after a while and do not even get to implantation stage. Your DH could do DNA fragmentation test.

Our urologist did say that with DH's sperm we should do stimulated IVf to increase our odds (provided genetic tests comes back normal) but with my high FSH it does not seem possible.

 

[dovkav123]

Briss,
What kind of genetic tests your DH did? (So pleased that they're normal)

Sperm DNA fragmentation is a very good idea. It is treated with changing lifestyle, freq. ejaculation, antioxidants, selenium and zinc.

Also karyotyping is another option, you can find out about chromosomal abnormalities, heredity disease with a blood test.

DQmatch partial share is OK, ussually 90% of the couples have it
Complete match with elevated NK cells 10% is very bad, no pregnancy possible.

 

[Briss]

we did karyotyping testing. We have not received the results yet. I am just hoping they are normal. it's taking ages to get the result, we should know either way next week.

our urologist did not recommend doing DNA fragmentation for DH cos he had 0% morphology, he said it's only going to depress us… he needs to quit beer and carry on with vitamins but ultimately his count was never above 10-12 mil

 

[dovkav123]

I just did my HcG trigger shot and on Friday is an ER.
We talked to my RE today and she thinks that we havn't had a good embryo yet. She offers stimulated IVF gonad-f 150, we should see around 10 eggs.
Our strategy for this cycle for better implantation. Cos I think implantation is the problem.
1. Transfer 3 day embryo with assisted hatching with laser.(my clinic don't do it with blastocysts but in US, yes)
2. Injection of seminal plasma on the day of embryo transfer
3. Heparin or aspirin
4. Decepyphyl is GnH antigonist 5th day after ET.
5. BD after ET.
6. HCG inject in the uterus after ET.

We talked about those posibilities and we need to decide which treatments to take or maybe all!!!
Also we took couple of blood tests 1. vitD 2. anti-thyroid antibodies (exposer to radiation can be at fault)
Anti-phosholipid syndrome testing came back negative.

natural killer cell test in the uterus my previous clinic is doing a study about and they didn't do biopsy during hysteroscopy

RE told me we can do all those expensive tests; postives won't guarantee that that's the problem. Genetic testing would tell high or low chances of becoming a parents.

transfering 2 day or 3 day embryos doesn't tell us much about embryo quality or implantantion problem. When we transfer blastocysts great quality, and they won't take, than we can discuss implantation problem

 

[DBZ34]

Are you going to do a stimulated cycle like your RE suggests, dovkav? Or are you going to keep sticking to the natural IVF?

I've read that 35% of women who have assisted hatching are successful and now that you've mentioned it, I've read up on seminal plasma. It seems like implantation rates are higher when seminal plasma is introduced. Very interesting.

I probably wouldn't do everything if I were you, but I look forward to hearing what you end up going with. I hope it helps that eggy implant and snuggle in for the next 9 months.

 

[dovkav123]

We are doing a natural IVf again.
I beleave in heaparin, clexane 20mg and my hubby beleaves in assited hatching. Plasma introduction to my cervix we'll leave it up to my RE.(Is it like BD?) Sperm swims in and the fluid hangs around.

 

[MoBaby]

Dovkav so sorry your cycle failed! i am sorry to hear this. I really hope this next cycle gives you your bfp. I know you know the natural IVF has a lower success rate than full IVF. I know you havent wanted to do the full ivf cycle but I think if this 6th cycle does not give you your BFP then your next step should be the low gonal f stims. The problem is with natural IVF is there is no selection going on as to which ones are good, bad, okay. When you only have 1 to work with all you can do is take it out, fertilize the egg, and get it back when it shows signs of fertilization. I know many women get bfps with just one egg fertilized from ivf so its not impossible. But when you have more embryos to choose from the best ones can be used and give you the most chances for success. And just from experience when you have extras done like assisted hatching the charge is the same for 1 embryo or 5 or whatever the clinics cutoff.

Out of all the extras you have listed I personally would recommend the intrauterine HCG at transfer and the aspirin. Heparin is not good to use if you have no indicated reason and so far testing proves you dont need a blood thinner but aspirin may be helpful. You would need to start it soon because it takes several days to have an effect. BD after transfer is not recommended because if you orgasm it can increase the risk of ectopic pregnancy but BD the day before ET can help as it puts the semen in there and there is some correlation between positive outcome and bding night before transfer. My clinic says no BD from time of transfer until a HB is seen or AF comes. Some of the other things I haven't heard of like antagonist after ET.
I think you should consider doing a full IVF cycle and get to blast stage before you can determine exactly what is going on. And also assess if your embryos are capable of going that far. I hope you get your BFP and dont have to go to the route of a full IVF! Good luck tomorrow!! FX for you.

 

[dovkav123]

Thank you Mobaby for a advice.
Before doing stimulated IVF, I'll do one for sure. I really want to know if we have any chance. I want to do as many tests as possible.
1. genetic karyotyping for both of us
2. dna sperm fragmentation test
3. DQ match

My RE doesn't want us to spend money on tests, because they are not proven or 100%, but I want to be save than sorry, my health is the most importnant and is priceless...

I know the results are not 100%, you still can have healthy kids with a bad genetic screening.
My grandfather's 2 siblings didn't have children, also my cousin(she) and my sister are childless. Maybe something running in the family...?

my thyroid antibody tests were OK.
my vit D test result is little low 26, should be 30-60. Even I take 1000IU a day.

Maybe we should rest for 3 months and let the sperm and eggs to grow and hopefully they will be healthier. Cos the last few months were very stressful to us. Lack of sleep and emotional family time. My hubby's dad was sick and we took care of him. He passed away, we'll live more at ease now.