Anyone TTC #1 and 30 or older?

[KatO79]

I had a no-children policy at my wedding, too! Knowing how the in-laws ignore their children at parties, and how my own siblings ignore theirs, I was NOT going to have to babysit all their kids while trying to enjoy MY wedding! Not only that, but the place we had ours was in an old Miner's Foundry, and it had all kinds of antiques on display in various rooms. I could just picture them pulling things off of walls, climbing the displays, banging on the piano keys... Ugh. No way.

Not to mention the fact that most of the adults were drinking all night, myself included. That's just not a kid friendly atmosphere!

Surprisingly, though, one of my cousins called to tell me how thrilled she was that I wasn't allowing kids at my wedding. She said she and her husband rarely got a chance to go out on dates alone and that the idea of spending a weekend out of town for my wedding was AMAZING and she was totally looking forward to it.

So stick to your guns! It was YOUR wedding, not anyone else's!

Thanks ireadyermind I can imagine the reception place wasn't very kid friendly either, it doesn't sound like it was. That's another reason small kids are most often not invited: so the parents can enjoy themselves and drink and not have to think about taking care of their kids. But I guess this woman refused to understand it and went into total invalidating mode.

I can't decide though if the mod agreed with her or not that my brother doesn't have NPD (when he clearly does). She wrote:

"I do believe you are trying to offer another perspective to OP.... but OP isn't to a point where they are open to addressing those issues and is instead seeking support so it's important that we focus on providing that right now. Also, in the future, please don't tell the users here that they are coming across as "increasingly whiny and entitled" as that is incredibly hurtful and not something we allow in this sub."

 

[ireadyermind]

Well, you were seeking support, right?

That person replying to you was not being supportive. In fact it almost sounds like (s)he may have taken the whole thing very personally, hence the violent outburst-type response. I find that the people who yell the loudest are the ones who have the most to hide.

Also bear in mind that while your brother's NPD might be clear as day to you, it is really hard to convey the sorts of things they're doing to other people. Especially in text, over the internet, when other people haven't met your brother and really only have to go on what you've said.



I know I've told many people of the horrors I suffered while living with my dad and/or grandparents. When I still lived with them, I told the others because I wanted to know I wasn't the only one who thought that something was wrong. In a few cases, it was with the hopes of getting some help for myself, to get me out of that situation. No one did help, though. No one could help me but myself.

But there were many times when people would look at me like I was the crazy one, or they'd tell me that things couldn't possibly have been as bad as I made them sound. OR there were times when I just couldn't find the right words to convey the sort of emotional warzone I was living in. The family members who only saw these people on holidays, and therefore only saw their Public Face, all told me how lucky I was to have a family like theirs, and how I shouldn't complain, or that I was being dramatic. They only saw the Public Face. They didn't see what went on behind the scenes.



So the Mod, and these other forum users, are only getting bits and pieces of the story from you. They don't see the whole "big picture" the way you do unless they've lived through a similar situation themselves. It's entirely possible that the Mod doesn't think your brother has a problem. But he was right when he said that you came to the forum looking for support, and it was wrong of the other person to name-call or drag you down when what you needed was an equivalent to a virtual hug.

 

[deafgal01]

As much as I adore children; I do agree some weddings do require asking guests to leave children at home or with a sitter as mentioned above- the environment isn't appropriate. I occasionally love being able to go to places where kids are not allowed because in my infertility journey it has been a nice breath knowing I can go and not worry about kids being unsupervised or seeing kids triggering off emotions in me that I often times suppress.

It annoys me when people who are guests think they have more rights or say in the decision to bring children to a party or event they did not plan themselves and try to change our choices when we already made up our mind.

 

[KatO79]

Well, you were seeking support, right?

That person replying to you was not being supportive. In fact it almost sounds like (s)he may have taken the whole thing very personally, hence the violent outburst-type response. I find that the people who yell the loudest are the ones who have the most to hide.

Also bear in mind that while your brother's NPD might be clear as day to you, it is really hard to convey the sorts of things they're doing to other people. Especially in text, over the internet, when other people haven't met your brother and really only have to go on what you've said.



I know I've told many people of the horrors I suffered while living with my dad and/or grandparents. When I still lived with them, I told the others because I wanted to know I wasn't the only one who thought that something was wrong. In a few cases, it was with the hopes of getting some help for myself, to get me out of that situation. No one did help, though. No one could help me but myself.

But there were many times when people would look at me like I was the crazy one, or they'd tell me that things couldn't possibly have been as bad as I made them sound. OR there were times when I just couldn't find the right words to convey the sort of emotional warzone I was living in. The family members who only saw these people on holidays, and therefore only saw their Public Face, all told me how lucky I was to have a family like theirs, and how I shouldn't complain, or that I was being dramatic. They only saw the Public Face. They didn't see what went on behind the scenes.



So the Mod, and these other forum users, are only getting bits and pieces of the story from you. They don't see the whole "big picture" the way you do unless they've lived through a similar situation themselves. It's entirely possible that the Mod doesn't think your brother has a problem. But he was right when he said that you came to the forum looking for support, and it was wrong of the other person to name-call or drag you down when what you needed was an equivalent to a virtual hug.

I know but the thing is it's a raised by narcissists website so everyone on that site has had a parent, sibling or maybe an in-law that has NPD which is why they're on that site. The woman who attacked me has a father with NPD and I believe the mod has a NPD parent as well (her mother I think). So they should be able to see it and understand it. Not only that but the rules seem to be "always assume context of abuse". So I don't know why they'd question it, especially after reading some of the emails he's sent me. I know I'm no saint and don't always handle situations perfectly (but who does, really?) but his replys always are condescending and reek of contempt and that he's high and mighty. I don't get why this woman didn't see that. But it could be it was the mod's way of saying she didn't know the whole story and just was saying she could see that woman was trying to give me another perspective? I don't know, I don't completely understand the mod's response

As much as I adore children; I do agree some weddings do require asking guests to leave children at home or with a sitter as mentioned above- the environment isn't appropriate. I occasionally love being able to go to places where kids are not allowed because in my infertility journey it has been a nice breath knowing I can go and not worry about kids being unsupervised or seeing kids triggering off emotions in me that I often times suppress.

It annoys me when people who are guests think they have more rights or say in the decision to bring children to a party or event they did not plan themselves and try to change our choices when we already made up our mind.

So true! And it's almost more insane for this stranger to start getting on my case about not having small children at my wedding. This is some of what she wrote (can't remember the rest and it's now deleted):

"It sounds to me like you set up your wedding to involve having many people fly in from around the world, which is expensive in time, money, energy, and emotions, but without their children having been invited. This may be something you had not considered, but it is unusual for parents to go on weeks long vacations without their children and even more unusual for them to take their children on the vacation but then find babysitters in the other country. I for one would be intensely uncomfortable with that situation and I'd either not go at all, or not go for more than a couple days. "

Although I didn't manage to correct her and let her know that the only guests flying in were my brother and his family since our friend in Mexico and his now ex-wife couldn't make it even though they really wanted to come. I mean what was this woman expecting, that I get married in the US and have all the Danish friends and family members fly there for the convenience of my brother??? Although I did mention that DH's big brother brought his small kids to the wedding ceremony (the now ex-wife sat way back with them since he was the best man) but her parents picked them up before the reception.

 

[ireadyermind]

Kat -- I'm thinking the person you're interacting with sounds like she has NPD herself, and either doesn't realize it or doesn't want anyone to know.

To get so defensive over things that aren't even her choice, to always be in favor of the NPD brother, and to behave as though you're not allowed to have a difference of opinion with her.... Well, seems to me she has the same disorder.

Of course, I can't be sure. But it would make a lot of sense why she'd say such wacky stuff!

 

[KatO79]

Kat -- I'm thinking the person you're interacting with sounds like she has NPD herself, and either doesn't realize it or doesn't want anyone to know.

To get so defensive over things that aren't even her choice, to always be in favor of the NPD brother, and to behave as though you're not allowed to have a difference of opinion with her.... Well, seems to me she has the same disorder.

Of course, I can't be sure. But it would make a lot of sense why she'd say such wacky stuff!

I'd actually thought about that myself but she's been a member for a while so it's strange that the mods haven't noticed because NPD people aren't allowed to post in that forum. It could also be she has a really serious case of FLEAS (https://www.lightshouse.org/fleas-fleas-fleas.html#axzz3dFnci3oQ)?

She also wrote this (went on her profile and the messages can be seen there):

"This exchange just ramps up and up and up.... with you reading into his words too far and him seemingly sarcastic and trying to get you to see that you're doing to him what your mom does to all of you.

You need to see this from a fresh perspective. You are unable to see it now, and keep on getting positive feedback. Your brother sounds, to me, like someone who is frank, and a bit sarcastic, but everything on his end has been reasonable and it doesn't look as though he pushes first."

This drove me nuts as well because how can anyone see his reponses as sarcastic? Here's the post I made on Reddit:

Spoiler

So this was at the time I was planning my wedding. I'd been corresponding via email with my NBro (since he lives in another country) about my wedding. At one point I made the mistake of writing to him mentioning I found it sad he couldn't stay longer than a few days for my wedding since I hadn't seen him in about 5 years which meant he hadn't met my soon-to-be DH. He sent me this cruel email (his is in quotations and my answers to him aren't):

“I cannot minimize how upsetting I found your recent email. It is astounding to (NBro's wife) and I that you (and Mom I suppose) can get upset at us and attempt to lay a guilt-trip on us for our not spending more time in Denmark when we are flying over there in a few months for your wedding, at great personal expense I might add, and at which time I will be forced to take time off of work, without pay, and (NBro's daughter) cannot even attend the wedding (I’ll be paying a babysitter for that).”

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve misunderstood my mail. It was strictly to let you know what my feelings were and to let you know mom is sad that she won’t be able to see you for more than a few days. It wasn’t meant to be a guilt trip. It was also that you haven’t been able to come in all the 5 years preceding the wedding, something that has disappointed us all.

I know that the trip won’t be cheap but when there’s a wedding and family and friends live far away there will of course be an expense. Our friends from Mexico will be coming and they’re not complaining about how expensive it’ll be for them. They’re doing everything they can to make it happen. We’re very happy that people who are travelling from other parts of the world want to do this. But the expense is not exactly something to complain about since it’s bad form, it’s something you are willing to accept to be able to come and therefore can’t complain, least of all to the bridal couple. Not only that, (DH's name) and I were counting on paying the babysitting expenses. Mom has found a friend of (cousin's daughter)’s who is willing and has the time so it has been pretty much arranged. (NBro's daughter) is not the only child to not be coming to the reception since (DH's big brother and wife)’s children won’t be invited either, they’re way too young (4 and 1 years old when the wedding comes around). Small children will quickly get bored of sitting in one place for 4-5 hours and listening to, what they consider, boring speeches during the reception. There is no possibility of entertaining them during the reception since it’s at an inn and there are no toys or other children to play with. I fully understand that you are bringing her so Mom and I can meet her and we’re looking forward to it, but you need to understand that it’s not normal for small children to be invited to weddings in DK, also because they get bored and it’s also of consideration for the parents so they can enjoy the party and not have to deal with bored and perhaps crying children.

“Because of the date of the wedding (something you and (DH's name) set after many months of un-necessary procrastination and insisted that we would just have to deal with the inconvenience of the date), we cannot stay in Europe more than a few days, a week at most, because my responsibilities demand that I get back to work quickly. Although we entertained the idea of visiting some of (NBro's wife)’s family in Northern Germany for a day or so, we had already agreed not to do so so as to maximize the time we could spend with Mom and you. Jumping to conclusions like that and sending us what I feel is an aggressive email about plans that were never finalized is incredibly hurtful.”

(DH's name) and I didn’t procrastinate at all so that’s just pure nonsense. We got engaged the 10th of February and quickly started to find a month. We ended up with the decision between March, April or May although we were at the time leaning mostly towards April. I sent you an email in the start of March to let you know that these were the months under discussion, no answer from you. But after discussing it with Mom an(DH's name)’s parents concerning which month has the best weather we ended up deciding on May, more precisely the 9th of May. We told everyone and since you never said anything of any of the months being inconvenient I figured it was ok Mom tell you since she was planning on hearing from you very soon. She then informed me that May 9th was no good for you and since I want you to give me away at the wedding and are an important person, (DH's name) and I moved it 3 weeks to the 30th of May. We knew you’d prefer June after what Mom told us but due to his parents had already planned a trip to the USA in the start of June and that numerous friends of ours will be away in June we had to compromise all these wishes. You were informed of this date around the 22nd of August, ample notice since most people don't get informed until 3-6 months before the wedding, you got 9 months warning. Besides it’s not reasonable to pressure the bride and groom to change the chosen date and only consider the convenience of 1 or 2 people. We had to balance everyone’s preferences and it’s impossible to find a date that everyone is happy with, as you said concerning the date chosen for (NBro's daughter)’s Christening. It’s up to friends and family to figure out to eventually make an effort and come or not come because they just can’t because of other obligations.

I had only Mom to orientate me as to your plans since you never said much and never let me know what the exact plans were. The last I heard was you were only staying for 2 days and then taking off for Germany for 2 weeks. I’m sorry that there have been misunderstandings but I don’t think it’s entirely my fault. I don’t feel that a mail letting you know I’m sad not to have seen you in all these years is aggressive, is sharing feelings aggressive?

“(NBro's wife) and I are extending a huge effort, not to mention expense, in coming to Denmark for the wedding, as well as offering to pay for your photographer – something we were under no obligation to do. Of course, we are glad to do it and would never miss such a happy occasion.”

(DH's name) and I appreciate that you are extending the effort and the expense but what’s with constantly reminding me of how much money it’s costing you to come to my wedding? It’s not polite to talk about how much money it’s gonna cost you to attend someones wedding. (DH's name) and I were also pleased that you offered to pay for the photographer as our wedding present to us but it’s not polite to complain how much a wedding gift is costing you.

“As it turns out, we feel very much the same way you feel...we feel we have been a low priority. We haven't seen you both in 5 years either and have hoped to get a visit from both of you, or at least one of you, especially since (NBro's daughter) was born. Since (NBro's daughter) was born, we have received countless excuses for Mom’s not coming over here to visit us. We have felt disappointed and very let down on several occasions when she has decided, for whatever reason, that she cannot make it over for a visit, even when we have offered to pay for her entire trip over here. We changed (NBro's daughter)’s Christening date and location because Mom said May in (state he lives) would be better for her than June in (another state close by) . Still, she didn't come.”

I’ll start with the problem with Mom: The major problem, besides finances, is that she’s a semi-handicap, she walks badly and often needs assistance when going farther that the mail box since her balance is poor and she’s afraid of falling. She can therefore not travel alone since she’d have a hard time getting around the airport and lifting heavy luggage. The Christening is a can of worms I’m not willing to get into, other than to say that since (our cousin and her DH) were unable to travel with her she couldn’t come because she can’t travel alone as I’ve said. (My DH) and I would of travelled with her but he unfortunately had to go back to (Asian country) because of the project and I was and am completely broke. Not only that, I was living off of unemployement checks and working at the crappy job at (company name) and had practically just started. There was also the fact that I was only allowed 3 weeks paid vacation and if we were going to spent 2 weeks in the usa later that year and also had a ski trip of a week then it wasn’t possible for me to come either.

“As for you, you said several times that you and (my DH) were planning a visit this past August, so we planned our summer trip to Maine around that and made no plans for August. You then said that you both planned to visit in September or October and did not have the courtesy of telling us you weren't coming after all until I asked you directly about your plans.”

You’re not being fair. Let me give you a (DH's company) 101 course and being a trainee at the company. When you’re a trainee at (DH's company) you travel when they say, no excuses short of funerals and your own wedding. Not only that, he was part of a project and had to travel at (DH's company)’s convenience so the project could be finished as quickly as possible. It was an ongoing project from December 2007 to October 2008 where he had to travel accordingly. We weren’t even informed of (Asian country) until 2 weeks before he had to travel there. At first he was only to be in Australia for at most 1 month, then he wasn’t supposed to go to Perth but (DH's company) changed their minds shortly before he had to go and this combined with that the project was very very delayed, forced my hand. I had to cancel the August trip and further delays forced me to cancel the other months. I had trouble keeping you completely updated because it’s hard to foresee delays and (my DH) has been poorly informed throughout the entire affair. Not only that, (my DH) couldn’t tell them to screw the project and take off to the USA without losing his job. He didn’t even get a decent summer vacation, also because he was tired of travelling and because it was so short. He needed a break from travelling and we ended up, with regret, cancelling our trip to the usa . This was also due to se needed to save up for the wedding and with only one person making money, it’s not easy to make ends meet in DK, the taxes are horrible and food costs a fortune. We also have a cat, another expense, since she is half blind and needs medicine for her eyes which isn’t cheap. Not only that, the vet bills have been terrible this month and we won’t be able to do a lot of things because of all these bills. Living off of one income is very difficult to do here, almost impossible. (My DH) and I are doing the best we can under the circumstances.

“While we understand that things got in the way of that visit and it couldn't be helped, the egocentric tone of your email leads me to wonder if either of you ever bothered to imagine how all this has made me and (NBro's wife) feel...that my mother and sister, the 2 people I feel closest to in my family, have not met my now over 1 year old daughter. Imagine me fielding questions from (NBro's wife)’s family about why neither my mother nor sister have come over to see (NBro's daughter) in over a year…I doubt you have indulged in this thought experiment but I can tell you that it is personally embarrassing to me, not that it would matter to someone who is so obviously enclosed in self-obsessive thinking. But, despite feeling hurt and ignored by my family, I would never and have never attempted to lay a guilt-trip on you or Mom for not visiting.”

It doesn’t feel like you understand when you at the same time complain about it. I assure you that Mom and I are sad that we haven’t had the means or opportunity to come and see her. The problems concerning travelling to the usa have been mentioned above. It’s not like we can just take a 2 hour drive, we live in another country thousands of miles away and there are more things to consider and more planning involved.

Your embarrassment is something I don’t understand, entirely beyond me. Surely they can see from all I’ve explained, Mom’s financial and health problems and mine and (my DH)’s finances and his job situation, that we just can’t leave without a certain amount of planning, saving and , in mom's case, assistance planning. I don’t see anything embarrassing in any of this. They can’t take all this under their consideration before judging us to be bad people? (Nbro's wife)’s family should try living in the real world were people don’t have lots of money and other real problems, it may be healthy for them. I can’t see these problems as being self obsessive or as blatant attempt to ignore you, these are real problems that need to be handled and dealt with when one plans on travelling halfway around the world. But maybe (my DH) should tell (DH's company) to screw themselves, lose his job and use all our wedding savings and what little else we have so you don’t suffer further embarrassment from (NBro's wife)’s family. Glad to hear we all are en embarrassment to you, nice to know:S

“I know this may come as shocking news to you, but the world does not revolve around you. It's time you heard OUR side of the story and for you and Mom to think about how we feel for once. I have attempted not to pressure either of you to visit and to understand why that has been difficult for you. It is disappointing in the extreme to see that it is a one-way street and you have apparently no insight or empathy into how the fact that only (our cousin and her DH) have made any effort at reciprocity feels to us.”

I’ve been well aware over this for a very long time. Life has taught me numerous lessons, but I don’t see why just because I’m letting you know about mine and Mom’s feelings and problems that have delayed our trip to the usa that you can conclude I’m a selfish person. I’m sorry to hear that your attempts to understand the numerous problems and complications that Mom, (my DH) and I have to deal with haven’t succeeded. What about some empathy for our financial problems and Mom’s health problems? Who’s sounding like a one-way street now? (Our cousin and her DH) have a much easier time getting away, (Cousin's DH) has no job and it’s 100 times easier for (cousin) to take time off than it is for (my DH). Other than that, I won’t touch the whole Christening affair since is just a mine field and now that (cousin) and Mom are good friend again, I see no reason to discuss it further. You’ve heard both parties and must make your own conclusions on who is in the wrong there.

“I do not wish to make anyone feel guilty or push anyone into doing anything that they are unwilling or unable to do … in short, guilt-trips are not my style and I would never have sent you a similar email to the one we received. I have let your wishes and that of Mom be our first priority instead of getting on people’s cases about it. I suggest you and Mom, if she put you up to this, rethink about who feels like a low priority.”

As said, it wasn't intented as a guilt trip, that's just how you falsely see it. Even if you did send me a similar email I would not have attacked you the way I feel you have attacked me. I would of just simply explained that due to circumstances it’s not possible to stay longer or come before that. It would never be unwillingness but unability that could stop me from coming. It’s funny you mention unwillingness, that’s hopefully not one of the reasons?! I would have sent you an answer in a polite manner. Mom has not put me up to anything, I’m nearly 30 and can definitely think for myself so leave her out of this whole mess, it’s me who wrote the mail so don’t take it out on her, don’t even mention it!

“We are both sorry and disappointed that neither of you have chosen, for whatever reasons, to visit us and see (NBro's daughter), when countless invites have been made and we have offered to cover some major expenses in that connection. It is astonishing and insulting to us to hear that we are not making an effort or that we don't care, or that our priorities are somehow misplaced.”

I think the reasons I’ve mentioned are highly reasonable excuses to as why it’s been difficult for all 3 of us to travel to the usa and see her. It hasn’t been a choice, circumstances have gotten in the way. First you say you understand things got in the way, now it’s a deliberate choice, with the added bonus of ignoring you?! I’m confused, either you understand and accept it or you don’t and tell us what horrible people we are. You can’t say you understand and accept and then turn around and attack us for circumstances that have been beyond our control. You have never offered to help (my DH) and I with the expenses such a trip would cost and I wouldn’t wish it or accept it, generous as I would of found it.

“To paraphrase you: "It would have been nice if (my name) and (our NMom) would have made an effort to get to know (NBro's daughter) before her first year". "It's a little strange that (my name) and (our NMom) will first meet my daughter at age 1 1/2." Sound familiar?”

We have tried to make the effort but what exactly would you suggest as a solution to all the problems I’ve discussed? Not only that, before you had her I don’t understand why you couldn’t find some time to come to DK and see me and Mom. You were both making money and weren’t as tied down by job situations and financial problems as us 3. You said at least 2 times that you would come by during summer and both times cancelled. You even, as I understand, went to Germany and were unable to find time to come here. Correct me if I’m wrong, please. Help me understand that because it made us feel like we were a low priority when you couldn’t scoot by Denmark for 2-3 days.

“Your comment about (my DH) is also beyond the pale and totally ridiculous. Until (my DH) proposed to you, he was of absolutely no interest to me. He was just a boyfriend at that point. In the brief time that has elapsed since your engagement, we have not had an opportunity to visit Denmark and you have made several false starts at visiting us. Recall that I thought I was going to meet (my DH) last Fall…it was you who changed that.”

This comment is not only extremely ridiculous and very unflattering of your personality, it’s also very insulting. I needed a few hours to calm down because it enraged me. (My DH) convinced me to calm down before writing you back because otherwise this email would have a very different tone. Nice to say a thing like that to your future brother-in-law! Imagine if I had said the same of (NBro's wife) while you were dating: “I don’t care to meet (NBro's wife) because she means nothing and is of absolutely no interest to me until you’re engaged to her.” You would have hit the roof, called me rude and selfish and disowned me instantly! I met (NBro's wife) before you were engaged, she meant/means something to you and therefore she meant enough to me that I wanted to meet her and get to know her, despite her lack of an engagement ring. It’s only natural to want to meet a sibling’s boy- or girlfriend, it’s also polite especially if they’ve been dating the person for at least 2 years. (my DH) has all these 5 years been a person who has loved and supported me through everything. He has been one of the very few I can always count on and he is the man I love, passionately. To talk about him in this fashion is therefore a huge insult to me. You’ve had these past 5 years to come, even mentioning meeting me and him e.g. for lunch. Was that just bullshit and you had no intention of meeting him? Here you have gone way too far and should really apologize for saying it since you’ve taken my mail to a whole other level than was intended.

As you can see, (my DH)’s job makes it hard to make definite plans and was why I was forced to constantly reschedule. No reason to say more hear.

“I am shocked and dismayed that after all of this, you would dare to question my devotion or my priorities. Grow up, get over yourself and attempt to think about the flip side for once. Please do not expect us to come to the wedding until you see the light and apologize to (NBro's wife) and me for your sarcastic and totally inappropriate email. I expect your apology forthwith; in fact I will accept nothing less.”

Enough with the shocked and dismayed, sheesh:S I’m shocked that you question the enormous hurdles Mom, (my DH) and I have encountered in our attempts to try and find money, time and opportunity to make a trip and see you and your daughter. I’ve gotten over myself a long time ago, maybe you should be careful of who you say things like that to because it may come back!

I’m sorry that I even mentioned all this and that you’ve misunderstood my intentions. I’m sorry that you don’t seem to understand the problems that have been encountered and that have been serious enough to get in the way of a trip to the usa . I’m sorry you think it’s sarcastic an inappropriate because I don’t see the sarcastic in saying I’m sad you couldn’t meet (my DH) before the wedding, something any person would be sad about, try putting yourself in my shoes. I’m sorry to hear the man I love most in this world was of no interest to you until our engagement, that’s very sad to know because he’s an amazing person that you’ve been missing out on.

This is the best apology I can do due to the hostile and defensive tone you’ve taken to a rather harmless email.

I know now that many of my responses are wrong in dealing with a Narc but I was just so upset and felt the need to correct him as he was twisting everything, changing facts and being very insulting. His answer to all this: "Apology accepted" :S

The woman also wrote:

"Now, I don't know you or your brother from any other random internet person. But when I read that exchange (the first of 2???) all I could think of was that this whole thing would have been avoided with some empathy and a truly polite "Thank you for accepting our invitation. I'm so glad you can make it!"

That one, tiny, simple phrase, wraps up the entirety of a relationship in which there is mutual respect and understanding of the reality of your relationship. I would challenge you to try to respond to people in that manner from here on out.

Even at your own wedding, you cannot expect people to drop everything and come to please you. And that is certainly not the time to drag out old drama.

I haven't even touched the second email...

The second email exchange just solidifies my opinion on the matter. Is your brother the oldest?

He calls it like it is. To a T. I disagree with his assessment that "She's your mother and so you should be nice to her." but after that.... he calls it 100%. He sounds like he is straight forward and definitely has the tone of the eldest of the family, but he wasn't wrong. Not from what I can see."

The second exchange was this post which happened a few months later after and was 3 months before my wedding:

Spoiler

My NMom called me while I was writing invitations and started for the 100th time talking about how (DH's Company) was firing people and due to the economy people don't have the Money for gifts ect ect (this was start of 2009). I told her to stop and I didn't feel like hearing it. Ticked off, she starts talking about how she was sick with a cold and couldn't do more on my wedding dress (my Mil was sewing it, my NMom was doing bead and sequin work). I told her tha maybe my Mil could take a look and continue or something (since it was a little over 3 months before the wedding). She went insane and ahung up. Just 5 minutes later, she called me back and tells me she will finish the dress but won't come to my wedding. She goes on, despite me trying to calm her down, that she won't come to the wedding, she disowns me and hopes that (my DH) and I "have a horrible life together". I hung up on her.

Shortly after, my GC NBro sent me this email:

"Okay, so I hear you and mom had another falling out.

She tells me she told you that she was sick and instead of offering to come over and help her, you asked "What about my dress?" I gather your version is that she just says things to upset you.

Frankly, the truth of the matter is that she is your mother and sometimes you just have to put up with the craziness and try to be a good daughter to her, keeping in mind her age and that she isn't going to be around for ever. I realize that you are preparing for a wedding, but you need to put some time aside every week to visit her, help her out, go shopping for or with her etc. If I were there, that is what I would do (despite my other obligations), and that is what I expect you to do. If you do this, there will be less drama coming out of (NMom's street adresse) - she feels ignored and unappreciated and is lashing out.

For all her drama and the crazy things she says sometimes, she is still your mother, loves you and does a lot of things for you. fexs, as you read this you probably have her car parked outside your apartment. That is a huge favor to you and I'm not so sure you always appreciate that fact.

I don't want to scold you and I apologize ahead of time if you think that is what I am doing. But these are the facts: You are almost Thirty years old and have to begin looking beyond yourself at the bigger picture - life isn't all about buying CDs, eatting out, buying clothing and going to concerts. Family must always take precedence over material things.

This situation is not all your fault, there is enough blame to go around, but perhaps you need to swallow some pride and stop being so sensitive, so we can move beyond this drama and all look forward to your wedding. I have already gotten on Mom's case about making that foolish comment about not coming to your wedding - ignore it and don't feed into the drama. But make more of an effort to show her that you care about her too, and not just your wedding and things that are important to you.

That's my two-cents.

Hope things are going smoothly in preparation. We will be flying in two days before the wedding and probably staying for three weeks. Looking forward to meeting (my DH) and giving a very embarrassing speech about you at the Reception! "

I sent him an email explaining what had happened and then wrote:

"Mom is, frankly, not telling the whole truth. (My DH) and I do visit and buy her food, once a week. When we show up, we stay for 4-5 hours 90% of the time.

She doesn't allow me to set a line, I'm not allowed to tell her to stop if I feel she's gone over the line. She's told me before, numerous times, that I just should shut up and take her crap, she's entitled to say nasty things to me, even when unprovoked! I'm 30 and refuse to do so, I'm in my full right to let her know enough is enough.

Mom, in my opinion, is not very stable mentally, she's almost as bad as (NMom's older sister, also a Narc) and gets worse and worse. No matter how much she receives help, it's never enough. I don't mind coming out to her with (my DH) 1 a week to buy food ect ect but I simply don't have the time to go out more than 1 a week. I'm taking a job course, if I don't come I will lose my unemployment checks and I first am free 2 PM. No excuses are accepted. Then I need some time to write job applications, finding a job is also a job in case people forget that! I have to use the time I would otherwise be using having a job, looking for a job.

No she got her car back many days ago and frankly we won't be needing her car anymore because (my DH)'s mother is giving us her old lemon for free.

I'm frankly amazed at how quick you are to defend her side, not having heard what I have to say on the matter. Especially since you've had your own problems with her, a major one being the whole drama around her fight with you about (NBro's wife). It would have been mature of you to reserve judgement in light of this until you had heard both versions. (Our cousin) has been more understanding but she knows what I'm going through, her mom is also crazy.

So don't lecture me. You have no idea what really goes on since you don't live here. Mom is good at playing the victim and making people feel sorry for her. She should have been an actress. I wish people would defend me once in a while instead of constantly taking her side, no questions asked. Maybe people should start asking questions instead of making me feel like a lying, egotistical bitch, which is absolutely not the case. But that suites Mom so no one tells her to quit her shit and behave. She obviously has full licence to treat me how she wishes and expects me to help her constantly anyway.

So open your eyes!"

His response:

"As usual, you take out of my comments what suits you and ignore the rest.

In my email I wrote that I understand that Mom can be unreasonable and difficult. This however does not give you free license to play the aggrived party either.

As I said, there is plenty of blame to go around - so you can stop feeling sorry for yourself because I never said it was all your fault. As you pointed out, I've had my run-ins with her as well, so I know how volatile she can be. I also realize that you are unable to see your actions clearly - and how anyone, not just Mom, might interpret your attitude.

Your "poor-me" attitude, along with that of Mom, simply shows that neither of you is adult enough to realize how you contribute to this drama - and why these dramas continue to occur.

The two of you have a negative co-dependent relationship which is very unhealthy.

You are welcome to get angry with me for pointing out the negative dynamic that exists between you and Mom, but this does not alter the facts.

I am glad that you are getting a car of your own for free - how fortunate. This will of course reduce your dependency on Mom and give her less to complain about. I suspect, it will also give you less reason to visit her - which may, in the end, be a good thing as your relationship seems to be mutually destructive.

As to choosing sides, I'll let you judge if I have done so or not. Both you and Mom seem to find it impossible to admit any fault in any of the situations that you find yourselves in - I find this very sad. As to checking with you first, I find your arguments just as laughable as I find Mom's - it would serve no purpose to "check with" you first - in my previous experience, I've found both of your "facts" equally twisted and laden with emotional baggage.

However, I am beginning to realize that what I think about this situation is largely irrelevant, because the two of you have not, and probably never will, address the problems in your relationship - but will continue to complain to others about the predictable consequences of your actions. So I will end this exercise in futility by encouraging you to do what you believe is best and hope that you make a wiser choice than has hitherto been the case.

Regards, (NBro's name)"

I was upset and mad, my answer was:

"I don't get were you get we're co-dependant. What a silly and totally unfounded idea. I have my own life, my own money albeit not very much and am definitely not dependant on Mom in any financial way or other. The car she kept saying we should borrow, also so we could buy her food and come by. I can perfectly well get by without her car. I don't know were you get that from. I just want a friendly relationship with her.

I have tried talking to her about any fights we've had in the past but she just gets very angry, she refuses to talk things out. I don't see what I can do about that, I can't force her to talk it out. I try to be an adult but it's useless when Mom acts like a child and just refuses to discuss it, it's all my fault according to her. She has suggested that everything that goes and has gone wrong in her life is my fault.

As I said, it may not have been to bright a comment when I mentioned the dress. I've admitted it, but feel that she overreacted. The whole wedding thing combined with my other problems has made me stressed, I wasn't thinking straight. I don't see her comments as being any more productive, actually she talks to me in a much worse manner than I've ever talked to her. You don't find any of what she said to me as being vindictive or totally out of order? Don't I have any right to let her know when she's crossed the line? Don't you see anything sick and wrong in saying I should just accept all the nasty things she says and keep my mouth shut, that she has a right to say what she wants without concern for my feelings or consequences? What about the whole constant "cancel the wedding because of the crisis" thing? Wishing me a "horrible life"? Very maternal of her. I don't care what you say, I don't feel as I've been so terrible that her comments are acceptable.

It's never enough, I could be out there every 2nd day and she'd complain i don't come everyday to help her. She'll always find fault with me to warrent her reactions and nasty comments.

I don't feel as you fully understand the problem because you are a man and she, like (NMom's sister, Narc), treats her sons differently. Try talking to (our cousin) about how it is with her mother, the problems they have/had, maybe she can better explain the dynamics than I can. I'm sure there is some reason why they act the way they do, probably having to do with (NMom's mother, Narc?).

I feel that I'm an honest person, to suggest I lie or somehow twist things is rather insulting. As to complaining to everyone, I haven't discussed it with other than (my DH) (which is rather natural) and in this case with (our cousin) whom asked me if I had talked to Mom. It's Mom who blabs to you, my mother-in-law and anyone else she can, so she can get approval for her actions. I was perfectly willing to leave everyone else out of this since it doesn't concern anyone and I don't see how mixing EVERYONE into it makes the situation any better or will better result in a patching up.

So I don't know what you want me to do about it, I've tried and gave up years ago because it is useless. Mom insists in continuing this evil circle which seems to never end. Her and (Nmom's N sister) aren't so different."

After this the communication sorta ended as I told him I felt like we were doing what our NMom was after: fighting. But he poo-pooed the idea and the exchange ended there.

I think this exchange with her is what really got me going and started my anxiety attack. She's almost calling me a narcissist and blaming me for everything while my Brother is almost innocent. Invalidation at it's finest.

She ended it like this:

My answer: "I didn't feel he deserved an apology with his nasty remark about my husband and his character assasination of me but I guess that was normal and totally acceptable in your eyes?"

Her's: "It would have been unacceptable if that had happened. But it didn't.

I am sorry you feel invalidated. There is a fine line between validation and placation. You asked me to explain what was wrong with your brother. "

 

[deafgal01]

That lady sounds whack. I would ignore what she mentioned and move on. Your family is messed up!

 

[KatO79]

That lady sounds whack. I would ignore what she mentioned and move on. Your family is messed up!

Thanks deafgal, I thought so as well but it's nice to be validated

DH was also shocked and shook his head at her comments and told me to ignore her because something is clearly messed up about her. She's actually gaslighting me by saying my brother didn't say that cruel remark about DH or go after me. I'm amazed she wasn't banned but could be the mod didn't feel like looking too much into it so hasn't realized what this woman was doing is strictly forbidden on that site.

Yup, don't I know it I think the vast majority of my family (they're all on my mother's side as no one is left on my father's side) are narcissists and enablers. It's unfortunately something that is passed down in families unless someone has the guts to see the truth and decide it can't and won't continue! But me being a truth teller means I'm being gradually ostracized by my siblings and cousin: the price one pays for not going along with the crowd and agreeing with the narcs.

UPDATE: So today's my possibly NPD sister's birthday and since I don't have her email, I had to send her my wishes on her FB time line. Her response: "Thank you sista' If you speak to Mom...can you please tell her to stop disowning me on my birthday....and I did send her a card. Ughhh."

I don't know why they all keep asking me to get my mother to behave and treat them or their DHs nice when I can't even get her to treat me right I just don't know how to respond to this and can't understand why she's making this a public thing on FB

I ended up telling her that I can't control our mother and that she does what she wants plus maybe she could try telling our mother this herself. Sister's response: "Yah... OK! Like I want to talk to her? I just need to get over it and not let her get to me. She will never change...it's so sad. Disowning your kids over and over again...Just ughhh. So done!"

So amazing: my siblings and cousin don't want to talk to me (no one asking how I'm doing, how it's going with DH's job hunt) but when it's something about our NPD mother annoying them, then they talk to me: to ask me to tell her to stop even though they know what she does to me. I should be used to this treatment by now but it never fails to amaze me sometimes

 

[deafgal01]

your mother is not within your control and I wouldn't have posted that on something so public like the posts in Facebook. I would have resorted to messenger or email for that- she does know how to use Facebook messenger I assume?

 

[KatO79]

your mother is not within your control and I wouldn't have posted that on something so public like the posts in Facebook. I would have resorted to messenger or email for that- she does know how to use Facebook messenger I assume?

Nope, I wouldn't have either but there you go: may I present my family everyone

Yes she does. But I guess it needs to be public for everyone to see At least when my cousin sent me a similar message about her DH, she used the messenger function.

 

[ireadyermind]

Man, that's the kind of drama that lead me to UnFriend a bunch of cousins and family members from FB. Lots of them only interact with others on FB because they can air their dirty laundry in public, so to speak. Name calling, passive aggressive comments, etc.

No one wants to see that crap shoved in their faces every day! I go to FB to keep in touch with long distance friends, co-workers, and family members I enjoy. Also like to see the occasional cute cat photo, or amusing video -- not to help other people with their drama.

You might consider doing the same. If they ignore you 95% of the time anyway, then they don't need to remain on the Friends list.

 

[KatO79]

Man, that's the kind of drama that lead me to UnFriend a bunch of cousins and family members from FB. Lots of them only interact with others on FB because they can air their dirty laundry in public, so to speak. Name calling, passive aggressive comments, etc.

No one wants to see that crap shoved in their faces every day! I go to FB to keep in touch with long distance friends, co-workers, and family members I enjoy. Also like to see the occasional cute cat photo, or amusing video -- not to help other people with their drama.

You might consider doing the same. If they ignore you 95% of the time anyway, then they don't need to remain on the Friends list.

OMG that's exactly the interactions I get from my siblings and cousin on FB. Other than the yearly "Happy Birthday" stuff, they ignore me 98% of the time unless they want to moan and whine about our NPD mom or come with something passive-aggressive

That's pretty much what I use FB for as well although I often share cat photos (mostly my own kitty) myself Although I don't have many close friends and many of them aren't on FB so most of the friends I have are fairly shallow or totally shallow "friends" on FB.

My only fear with unfriending them is that it'll create drama which I don't need more of right now

And to add insult to injury: my sister has been sending nice thank yous to everyone else and all other family members have been getting "I love you!" and/or "I miss you!" and/or "Xoxo"

 

[drjo718]

I finished provera 2 nights ago and started spotting tonight. Hoping af will be here tomorrow so I can start ttc again. My specialist seemed optimistic I could conceive in the next 3 cycles with femara.

 

[ireadyermind]

I finished provera 2 nights ago and started spotting tonight. Hoping af will be here tomorrow so I can start ttc again. My specialist seemed optimistic I could conceive in the next 3 cycles with femara.

That sounds promising! How exciting to think that you could be 3 mos or less away from your BFP!



AFM --

Today is 13 DPO for me and no sign of AF. My shortest LP was 12 days so I'm feeling optimistic. I still have a couple more days to go before I'll know anything for sure, though. I'm starting to get AF-like cramps, but my CP is high and tightly closed. Other cycles where I tracked this, CP was medium or low, and open. Not so this morning!

I even noticed that my CP tends to lower through the course of the day, to the point that by night time, it's SO low I'm surprised by it. But the past couple of days it hasn't been lowering at all! I know CP isn't supposed to be a good indicator, BUT when I compare it to AF cycles, this is different. I'm choosing to be hopeful.

DH says my breasts look "wider". The nipple sensitivity has gone away, but I saw the blue veins in them again last night. That seems to come and go. I'm also feeling like a bottomless pit the past couple of days. Ate a BIG dinner last night and was hungry a couple hours after. Had a snack before bed and woke up famished. Eep!

 

[KatO79]

I hope this is it for you ireadyermind

AFM went to my 2nd U/S and have 2 follies, one at 13 and one at 14 mm (one follie in each ovary) So need to take Puregon a couple more days to get them up to the 17 mm they want. Will trigger Wednesday night and have my IUI #6 on Friday morning.

They didn't have any more Ovitrelle so got Pregnyl instead and have to mix up the fluid and powder myself but it seemed pretty simple. She said there's a video on their homepage if we need to see it again before doing it. But I'm a Lab Tech so shouldn't be too problematic

 

[ireadyermind]

I hope this is it for you ireadyermind

Thanks! 15 DPO, no AF or AF cramps... Tiny squint of a line on Wondfos? I'm waiting to use a FRER until a couple days from now. I only have two left and they're pricey! Meanwhile I have tons of Wondfos...


What do you think? Line or no line?

 

[KatO79]

I hope this is it for you ireadyermind

Thanks! 15 DPO, no AF or AF cramps... Tiny squint of a line on Wondfos? I'm waiting to use a FRER until a couple days from now. I only have two left and they're pricey! Meanwhile I have tons of Wondfos...


What do you think? Line or no line?

Oh I'm horrible with seeing very faint lines but I think I may see something on the last one Maybe try a FRER tomorrow or the day after?

 

[ireadyermind]

I hope this is it for you ireadyermind

Thanks! 15 DPO, no AF or AF cramps... Tiny squint of a line on Wondfos? I'm waiting to use a FRER until a couple days from now. I only have two left and they're pricey! Meanwhile I have tons of Wondfos...


What do you think? Line or no line?

Oh I'm horrible with seeing very faint lines but I think I may see something on the last one Maybe try a FRER tomorrow or the day after?

Yep, that's the plan! Wait for the hCG to build up -- or for AF to show, which I hope doesn't happen! >.>

 

[drjo718]

I see all the lines!!

 

[ireadyermind]

I see all the lines!!

Me toooooooo I'm going nuts over here! I wish they'd hurry up and get darker TODAY, not 48 hours from now.