Breast is not best, language, guilt and lactivism musings

[DLA]

I tried to read the whole thing but who it's long! My two cents:

Whether another woman BFs or FFs, affects me in no way

No, definitely shouldn't not talk about the risks of FF BUT comparing FF to mistreated, injected chickens? Seriously??? Get real! Whoever wrote that article didn't write it to "educate" or "help" anyone, it was written to put FF moms down. Sorry I'm calling bullshit on this one.

Moms should definitely know when they grab a can of formula that there risks to it (as compared to BFing), just like there's a risk every time you put your baby in the car. Does it need to be shoved down their throat?? I don't think so... It's all about the delivery, the way you word it. You can give someone the exact same information in two different ways, and one can be offensive while the other is not. There's no need to be nasty about it and belittle a mother for FF. And no I don't mean you have to "sugar-coat" everything but dramatic comparisons to pretty much tortured chickens is quite offensive.

I also believe that if woman CHOOSES formula, she should not get shit for that. Where are women's rights?? Yes you have an obligation to take care of your baby but you still have the right to decide what to do to your body. You can totally raise a healthy baby on formula! I think that mom should be aware that BF is ideal and doesn't carry the risks that formula does but when we talk about risks, seriously just about everything you do or don't do has a risk. It shocks me that some people think all mother's should at least try. I disagree.

Just how I feel, I'm sure many disagree with me. For the record, I tried to BF and kinda did but my son struggled with latching. I exclusively pumped for 4.5 months and attempted to get him to latch until he was just over 3 months (I was pretty determined!). I had to go back to work around 3 months and anyone that's exclusively pumped needs no explanation why I finally had to throw in the towel on pumping. OMG I remember feeling just awful about the whole thing, like I'd done something wrong. I really thought if I kept pushing through and trying, he would latch but sadly that didn't happen. My point is that no mother should made to feel like she's less of mother for FF. I don't think BF moms should censor themselves just have a little compassion for those that were unable to BF and maybe even some understanding for those that chose not to.

 

[Dragonfly]

I got no help from nhs with breastfeeding at all ?? I was asked months in by the hv did I ever find out why my nipples hurt after she didnt know what it was. It was thrush and my doc didnt know either. Even prescribed me the wrong cream for vag thrush and all. No one came to my house and helped me with breastfeeding?? I dont think they help with formula feeding here either but I did see leaflets in ward on how to make up bottles. (nothing on breastfeeding).

 

[Missy86]

This is the group that came to see me, came twice I think

https://www.littleangels.org.uk/

 

[summer rain]

I live in London and when asking for help was told no one could actually come out to see me; in the area where I lived with my middle two boys there was absolutely no BF groups at all in the entire borough and no NHS BF support team. In this area there is a BF support team (though they don't do home visits) but the local authority do not train peer supporters, and there are no BF support groups in this area, nearest one is more than 2 miles away on a rough estate. Apparently people around here are too 'posh' to need help BFing! Like dragonfly the hospital had a lot of leaflets on making up formula safely and would give you these before being discharged but you'd have to ask for a BF leaflet and they wouldn't always be able to produce one. xx

 

[summer rain]

You can say that but the fact remains that I was given no help when I switched. The mw told me they were not allowed to advise me, If a women decides not to bf at all she should still be given advice as well

The baby friendly initiative has specific guidance on how women should be shown (in small groups or individually) how to prepare formula safely. There are some fab leaflets (I like the Unicef one) about the safe preperation of formula milk.

There are failings, I agree, just like with breastfeeding support. Unfortunately, Midwives don't have to undergo enough training (IMO) about infant feeding, and so while many feel qualified, they do offer poor support and education, to parents who are feeding in every method.

I recieved horrible breastfeeding support with my first, it shouldn't happen, but it does. Luckily there are groups campaigning for better care for all Mothers' and Babies.

Also I read on the UNICEF baby friendly site that if a mum chooses to FF in a baby friendly certified hospital she must be given the chance to see a practical demonstration of how to safely make up bottles. Different health authorities have different rules and regulations; in some areas they say they cannot give info on formula whatsoever; in others they advise top ups for no reason and advise specific brands of formula and make spurious claims about their benefits over other brands, neither is good xx

 

[MommaAlexis]

There is so many issues with the health care systems for both FF and BF, it all makes it ten times harder emotionally and physically unless you already know exactly what you're doing.

 

[Missy86]

I have just spoken to Little Angels, someone is gonna come and see me in early July to give me advice before I have Liam

 

[patch2006uk]

I have just spoken to Little Angels, someone is gonna come and see me in early July to give me advice before I have Liam

That's fab Glad there's a group locally that can come and see you

 

[mia_leacey]

A few more thoughts:

You do realize, (all of you that want to go the ""Risk" vs. "Benefit" style of promotion), that you will have left a woman with no place to go except guilt, grief and depression when breastfeeding isn't possible. It is bad enough now.

I'm not sure personally I would want to highlight the risks; it's a word with extremely negative connotations and as you point out vintage, a word which is likely to engender plenty of heartache and offence. I do see the point of those who are promoting the concept, but I agree, I'm not sure the word is right, it just seems to make things more messy.

But the more I think about it, the more I dislike the 'Breast is Best' message. What that says, without saying it, is 'Formula is Fine,' but what it also does, and this is key, is place breastfeeders into an exclusive group; it perpetuates the 'normality' of formula feeding. All women feed their babies. Most women FF. Some women BF. It places us outside the sphere of the ordinary, it makes us seem like we're some kind of elite, gifted group. It ties it in somehow with the class debate and makes it seem like something only the middle classes would do. It's no wonder really that there are so many assumptions that all breastfeeders have a superiority complex and that we are looking down our noses at formula feeders. This is not ok!!!

Without a doubt, in my personal circumstances, formula feeding is normalised. These are all comments I have had said to me:
(Around 4 months while NIP - a stranger) "Get him on solids love, then he'll be ok."
(Around 8 weeks when LO was ill - my neighbour) "Get him on the bottle, get some vitamins into him."
(Around 4 months - my sister-in-law) "Can he hold his bottle yet?"
(Around 4 months - my neighbour) "He's not put on enough weight, you must not be making up enough in his bottles, how many ounces do you put in them?"
(Around 3 months - a friend) "Get him off the tit."
(Around 6 months - a friend) "I bet you want to get him on the bottle."
(Around 7 months - my MIL's partner) "Can he not drink from a cup yet?"
(Around 1 month - a friend) "You can't feed here (in my own home) I don't want to see your breasts."
(Around 6 months - my husband's boss) "Oh I recommend you formula feed the next one."
How is it that it's either assumed that I am formula feeding (because that's what the majority do) or that I should be or that I want to be???
Can't we normalise breast feeding?
I agree with this:

This is part of the reason I don't like the 'breast is best' message. It's letting health professionals off the hook. It is like saying it's the ideal, but hey, formula is fine. Of course, formula is fine (in the western world!) but if breastfeeding was seen as 'normal' instead of 'best' then maybe health professionals would have to push themselves a bit harder to help women out.

For those women who perceive that they have 'failed' at breastfeeding, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they have been failed by the system, or even failed by society? How do we turn these viewpoints around? I don't know the answers, I'm just pondering...

Also:

I also believe that if woman CHOOSES formula, she should not get shit for that. Where are women's rights?? Yes you have an obligation to take care of your baby but you still have the right to decide what to do to your body.

I'm not sure I agree with feminism being brought into the debate. And isn't that a bit of an outmoded view of feminism anyway? - 'In order to be seen as equal to men and to compete with them on a level footing we have to be seen as the same'? We're not, we're different. But here we go, betrayed by our own biology again. Heaven forfend a woman should take pleasure in her own body's biological function. Isn't that another patriarchal construct, or even constraint? "Don't worry dears, you don't have to be tethered to the suckling little parasites you know... Come back to work my dear and then we'll all be rich. Mwah ha ha..."

Ok, being deliberately provocative there, but I really don't see why feminism and breastfeeding have to be mutally exclusive...

Ho hum.

 

[DLA]

Just reading the last few posts about not having support for BF. Don't all hospitals have BFing programs and lactation consultants to help? My hospital was awesome. I took a class on it when I was pregnant and had help from the lactation consultants as much as I needed after my son was born, even when he was 3 months old.

I do think it's criminal on the hospital's part not to have that support.

 

[DLA]

A few more thoughts:

You do realize, (all of you that want to go the ""Risk" vs. "Benefit" style of promotion), that you will have left a woman with no place to go except guilt, grief and depression when breastfeeding isn't possible. It is bad enough now.

I'm not sure personally I would want to highlight the risks; it's a word with extremely negative connotations and as you point out vintage, a word which is likely to engender plenty of heartache and offence. I do see the point of those who are promoting the concept, but I agree, I'm not sure the word is right, it just seems to make things more messy.

But the more I think about it, the more I dislike the 'Breast is Best' message. What that says, without saying it, is 'Formula is Fine,' but what it also does, and this is key, is place breastfeeders into an exclusive group; it perpetuates the 'normality' of formula feeding. All women feed their babies. Most women FF, some women BF. It places us outside the sphere of the ordinary, it makes us seem like we're some kind of elite, gifted group. It ties it in somehow with the class debate and makes it seem like something only the middle classes would do. It's no wonder really that there are so many assumptions that all breastfeeders have a superiority complex and that we are looking down our noses at formula feeders. This is not ok!!!

Without a doubt, in my personal circumstances, formula feeding is normalised. These are all comments I have had said to me:

(Around 4 months while NIP - a stranger) "Get him on solids love, then he'll be ok."
(Around 8 weeks when LO was ill - my neighbour) "Get him on the bottle, get some vitamins into him."
(Around 4 months - my sister-in-law) "Can he hold his bottle yet?"
(Around 4 months - my neighbour) "He's not put on enough weight, you must not be making up enough in his bottles, how many ounces do you put in them?"
(Around 3 months - a friend) "Get him off the tit."
(Around 6 months - a friend) "I bet you want to get him on the bottle."
(Around 7 months - my MIL's partner) "Can he not drink from a cup yet?"
(Around 1 month - a friend) "You can't feed here (in my own home) I don't want to see your breasts."
(Around 6 months - my husband's boss) "Oh I recommend you formula feed the next one."

How is it that it's either assumed that I am formula feeding (because that's what the majority do) or that I should be or that I want to be???
Can't we normalise breast feeding?
I agree with this:

This is part of the reason I don't like the 'breast is best' message. It's letting health professionals off the hook. It is like saying it's the ideal, but hey, formula is fine. Of course, formula is fine (in the western world!) but if breastfeeding was seen as 'normal' instead of 'best' then maybe health professionals would have to push themselves a bit harder to help women out.

For those women who perceive that they have 'failed' at breastfeeding, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they have been failed by the system, or even failed by society? How do we turn these viewpoints around? I don't know the answers, I'm just pondering...

Also:

I also believe that if woman CHOOSES formula, she should not get shit for that. Where are women's rights?? Yes you have an obligation to take care of your baby but you still have the right to decide what to do to your body.

I'm not sure I agree with feminism being brought into the debate. And isn't that a bit of an outmoded view of feminism anyway? - 'In order to be seen as equal to men and to compete with them on a level footing we have to be seen as the same'? We're not, we're different. But here we go, betrayed by our own biology again. Heaven forfend a woman should take pleasure in her own body's biological function. Isn't that another patriarchal construct, or even constraint? "Don't worry dears, you don't have to be tethered to the suckling little parasites you know... Come back to work my dear and then we'll all be rich. Mwah ha ha..."

Ok, being deliberately provocative there, but I really don't see why feminism and breastfeeding have to be mutally exclusive...

Ho hum.

lol I knew someone would have something to say about that part I totally see what you mean, I really do. I just think it's not fair to expect a woman who has no interest in BFing, for whatever reason to do something with her body she doesn't want to do. Something about that rubs me the wrong way. I personally can't imagine not wanting to BF but I know some women with trauma or are just a little weirded out by it, genuinely don't want to. I would hate to say to those woman that there feelings are invalid and they need to at least try.

 

[patch2006uk]

Analytical armadillo posted this yesterday, just while on the subject on feminism

https://m.jezebel.com/5917431/feminists-are-more-likely-to-be-attachment-parents

I agree that being equal to men and being the same as men are not the same. Equality means that a woman's unique functions are value by society just as much as anything a man contributes.

 

[patch2006uk]

Just reading the last few posts about not having support for BF. Don't all hospitals have BFing programs and lactation consultants to help? My hospital was awesome. I took a class on it when I was pregnant and had help from the lactation consultants as much as I needed after my son was born, even when he was 3 months old.

I do think it's criminal on the hospital's part not to have that support.

My hospital has a BFing support team attached to it, but that's only because we've been identified as a poor area with low BFing rates. Most other local hospitals have very little. The biggest problem is that midwives, HVs and doctors give out out of date and duff info frequently. I do think all health care practitioners should study infant feeding in some detail, or at least have the guts to admit they don't know what's best, and refer you on to someone who does!

 

[DLA]

Just reading the last few posts about not having support for BF. Don't all hospitals have BFing programs and lactation consultants to help? My hospital was awesome. I took a class on it when I was pregnant and had help from the lactation consultants as much as I needed after my son was born, even when he was 3 months old.

I do think it's criminal on the hospital's part not to have that support.

My hospital has a BFing support team attached to it, but that's only because we've been identified as a poor area with low BFing rates. Most other local hospitals have very little. The biggest problem is that midwives, HVs and doctors give out out of date and duff info frequently. I do think all health care practitioners should study infant feeding in some detail, or at least have the guts to admit they don't know what's best, and refer you on to someone who does!

I don't see how you can be an OBGYN, pediatrician, hv that sees and treats patients post partum or newborns and not be trained in infant feeding! That's just insane to me. When I was having trouble with my son latching and he was getting his 6 week check up, the pediatrician helped me with him latching. She definitely knew what she was doing. That's such a shame, really is.

 

[mia_leacey]

lol I knew someone would have something to say about that part I totally see what you mean, I really do. I just think it's not fair to expect a woman who has no interest in BFing, for whatever reason to do something with her body she doesn't want to do. Something about that rubs me the wrong way. I personally can't imagine not wanting to BF but I know some women with trauma or are just a little weirded out by it, genuinely don't want to. I would hate to say to those woman that there feelings are invalid and they need to at least try.

I do agree with you, I've said before that I'm pro-choice, every woman should have the right to choose, but I think we're getting into tricky ground when we start equating formula feeding with feminism.

What I'm pro is much more support for women who need it or want it and trying to make our society less anti-bf, which has been my experience since I've begun my bf-ing journey. (But not by making it anti-ff, nor at the cost of offending anyone who ff-s by choice or otherwise!) No ideas how to do this - just trying to make my personal stance clear!

 

[SnuggleMum]

Just reading the last few posts about not having support for BF. Don't all hospitals have BFing programs and lactation consultants to help? My hospital was awesome. I took a class on it when I was pregnant and had help from the lactation consultants as much as I needed after my son was born, even when he was 3 months old.

I do think it's criminal on the hospital's part not to have that support.

My hospital has improved greatly since my experience - they are now in the third stage of Baby Friendly accreditation. I think that is fabulous, because it means every MW has a basic level of training. When that isn't the case, it can often be luck of the draw. If you get a MW with an interest in feeding, or one who recognises the importance of supporting a woman to breastfeeding if that is what she wants, then it is often good. I had specific problems with my first baby, which could be overcome, but is one of the common reasons for stopping, and it was just assumed I would stop, and no support was offered.

 

[DLA]

lol I knew someone would have something to say about that part I totally see what you mean, I really do. I just think it's not fair to expect a woman who has no interest in BFing, for whatever reason to do something with her body she doesn't want to do. Something about that rubs me the wrong way. I personally can't imagine not wanting to BF but I know some women with trauma or are just a little weirded out by it, genuinely don't want to. I would hate to say to those woman that there feelings are invalid and they need to at least try.

I do agree with you, I've said before that I'm pro-choice, every woman should have the right to choose, but I think we're getting into tricky ground when we start equating formula feeding with feminism.

What I'm pro is much more support for women who need it or want it and trying to make our society less anti-bf, which has been my experience since I've begun my bf-ing journey. (But not by making it anti-ff, nor at the cost of offending anyone who ff-s by choice or otherwise!) No ideas how to do this - just trying to make my personal stance clear!

Oh yeah I completely agree with you on that. Honestly with the feminism thing you could play it both ways. Like a woman that gets shit for extended BFing. Who is anyone to tell her she should stop or what to do with her body and child? I think that's equally wrong. No matter how you feed your child (as long as you are feeding them and keeping them healthy!), it's woman's choice that she shouldn't have to defend or explain, that's what I mean.

I 100% agree that BFing education should be much better and BF should be promoted as it's amazing!! I had amazing support when I BF that really was invaluable but I've heard a lot of stories that didn't have this. I think that is seriously horrible.

 

[SnuggleMum]

Staying on the feminism/body choice theme, I wish there were a way to get more support for victims of abuse and trauma with regard to breastfeeding. It seems quite a common barrier to breastfeeding, and while I do totally get that in some cases it is totally the right thing for a woman to opt to not breastfeed, I'm sure there are so many that with the right support, could have a very happy and healing journey. Is there a way to get across that some women find breastfeeding after abuse to be a real milestone in their recovery, and that there are women who can talk, listen and offer support and gentle help, without making it sounds like all women SHOULD try it?

I find it hard to tell women that there are options out there, without it being taken that I'm saying they 'should' do something.

 

[DLA]

Just reading the last few posts about not having support for BF. Don't all hospitals have BFing programs and lactation consultants to help? My hospital was awesome. I took a class on it when I was pregnant and had help from the lactation consultants as much as I needed after my son was born, even when he was 3 months old.

I do think it's criminal on the hospital's part not to have that support.

My hospital has improved greatly since my experience - they are now in the third stage of Baby Friendly accreditation. I think that is fabulous, because it means every MW has a basic level of training. When that isn't the case, it can often be luck of the draw. If you get a MW with an interest in feeding, or one who recognises the importance of supporting a woman to breastfeeding if that is what she wants, then it is often good. I had specific problems with my first baby, which could be overcome, but is one of the common reasons for stopping, and it was just assumed I would stop, and no support was offered.

Yea that's terrible. I had some issues and struggled for months trying to BF but if I hadn't had all the support and help I had, I would have stopped probably 2 weeks in.

Also this is a little OT but the talk about hospitals made me think of this. My hospital promotes attachment parenting/BFing, that's there public stance. OK great but the 2nd night in the hospital, I thought I was gonna die, I was on day 3 of no sleep and my son didn't like the little bassinet thing so I put him in the bed with me for a couple hours to get a little sleep. omg the nurse scolded me, told me I can't do that, blah blah and I needed to send him to the nursery over night to get some sleep (which I did not!!). Um how is that attachment parenting?? Sorry for the random thought but I've never thought about it like that!

 

[DLA]

Staying on the feminism/body choice theme, I wish there were a way to get more support for victims of abuse and trauma with regard to breastfeeding. It seems quite a common barrier to breastfeeding, and while I do totally get that in some cases it is totally the right thing for a woman to opt to not breastfeed, I'm sure there are so many that with the right support, could have a very happy and healing journey. Is there a way to get across that some women find breastfeeding after abuse to be a real milestone in their recovery, and that there are women who can talk, listen and offer support and gentle help, without making it sounds like all women SHOULD try it?

I find it hard to tell women that there are options out there, without it being taken that I'm saying they 'should' do something.

Yea there really should be people that are specialized specifically in trauma/BFing. I think the only way you could present it without it sounding like "you must do this", is objectively explain there is support for them, IF they choose they want it and leave it at that. Let them make that choice. The trauma thing just breaks my heart honestly because I look at it like whatever happened to them, stole away the chance to experience BFing which is an amazing thing.