Breast is not best, language, guilt and lactivism musings

[Missy86]

Staying on the feminism/body choice theme, I wish there were a way to get more support for victims of abuse and trauma with regard to breastfeeding. It seems quite a common barrier to breastfeeding, and while I do totally get that in some cases it is totally the right thing for a woman to opt to not breastfeed, I'm sure there are so many that with the right support, could have a very happy and healing journey. Is there a way to get across that some women find breastfeeding after abuse to be a real milestone in their recovery, and that there are women who can talk, listen and offer support and gentle help, without making it sounds like all women SHOULD try it?

I find it hard to tell women that there are options out there, without it being taken that I'm saying they 'should' do something.

I totally agree with you

 

[vintage67]

nhkjlhl

 

[MommaAlexis]

That was a little over the top and not what any of us have said here. Actually, quite the opposite.

 

[Gunnhilde]

A few more thoughts:

You do realize, (all of you that want to go the ""Risk" vs. "Benefit" style of promotion), that you will have left a woman with no place to go except guilt, grief and depression when breastfeeding isn't possible. It is bad enough now.

I'm not sure personally I would want to highlight the risks; it's a word with extremely negative connotations and as you point out vintage, a word which is likely to engender plenty of heartache and offence. I do see the point of those who are promoting the concept, but I agree, I'm not sure the word is right, it just seems to make things more messy.

But the more I think about it, the more I dislike the 'Breast is Best' message. What that says, without saying it, is 'Formula is Fine,' but what it also does, and this is key, is place breastfeeders into an exclusive group; it perpetuates the 'normality' of formula feeding. All women feed their babies. Most women FF. Some women BF. It places us outside the sphere of the ordinary, it makes us seem like we're some kind of elite, gifted group. It ties it in somehow with the class debate and makes it seem like something only the middle classes would do. It's no wonder really that there are so many assumptions that all breastfeeders have a superiority complex and that we are looking down our noses at formula feeders. This is not ok!!!

Without a doubt, in my personal circumstances, formula feeding is normalised. These are all comments I have had said to me:
(Around 4 months while NIP - a stranger) "Get him on solids love, then he'll be ok."
(Around 8 weeks when LO was ill - my neighbour) "Get him on the bottle, get some vitamins into him."
(Around 4 months - my sister-in-law) "Can he hold his bottle yet?"
(Around 4 months - my neighbour) "He's not put on enough weight, you must not be making up enough in his bottles, how many ounces do you put in them?"
(Around 3 months - a friend) "Get him off the tit."
(Around 6 months - a friend) "I bet you want to get him on the bottle."
(Around 7 months - my MIL's partner) "Can he not drink from a cup yet?"
(Around 1 month - a friend) "You can't feed here (in my own home) I don't want to see your breasts."
(Around 6 months - my husband's boss) "Oh I recommend you formula feed the next one."
How is it that it's either assumed that I am formula feeding (because that's what the majority do) or that I should be or that I want to be???
Can't we normalise breast feeding?
I agree with this:

This is part of the reason I don't like the 'breast is best' message. It's letting health professionals off the hook. It is like saying it's the ideal, but hey, formula is fine. Of course, formula is fine (in the western world!) but if breastfeeding was seen as 'normal' instead of 'best' then maybe health professionals would have to push themselves a bit harder to help women out.

For those women who perceive that they have 'failed' at breastfeeding, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they have been failed by the system, or even failed by society? How do we turn these viewpoints around? I don't know the answers, I'm just pondering...

Also:

I also believe that if woman CHOOSES formula, she should not get shit for that. Where are women's rights?? Yes you have an obligation to take care of your baby but you still have the right to decide what to do to your body.

I'm not sure I agree with feminism being brought into the debate. And isn't that a bit of an outmoded view of feminism anyway? - 'In order to be seen as equal to men and to compete with them on a level footing we have to be seen as the same'? We're not, we're different. But here we go, betrayed by our own biology again. Heaven forfend a woman should take pleasure in her own body's biological function. Isn't that another patriarchal construct, or even constraint? "Don't worry dears, you don't have to be tethered to the suckling little parasites you know... Come back to work my dear and then we'll all be rich. Mwah ha ha..."

Ok, being deliberately provocative there, but I really don't see why feminism and breastfeeding have to be mutally exclusive...

Ho hum.

The women in my family have inadequate milk supply. We were not failed by the system. Had it not been for formula or a wet nurse (which seems to have gone out of fashion) I would not be alive and neither would my mother. My mother was formula fed in the 1950s and I in the 1980s. My daughter was supplemented in the 2000s.

This whole argument about how it will stunt growth or lead to lower IQs is silly. My mother has a PhD in physics from an Ivy League university and I have an IQ that is more than high enough. My daughter is also just fine. She is 3 and speaks 3 different languages, understands basic astrophysics, and knows more Chemistry than most 14 year olds that I've met.

Not a single person EVER pushed FF on me. In fact, my hospital insisted she go straight to breast after my section and that I could not leave until they were sure I had BF down. The pediatrician pushed BF and so did all of my family and community. Even out in public I had asked where I could BF at a facility and they would say anywhere or offer a private room.

However, I'd like to point out that I disliked having to BF and I do think it is not for me, despite having done it for 6 months. It is an obligation, but I am just one of those people that likes my personal space and I don't think you should criticize a woman for that. I'll continue to do it for future children, but I don't think we should all have to fall in line with being absolutely in love with it or even liking it. Let's let women dislike it if they want to and not feel guilty. Maybe being supportive of them despite that might help them BF more.

 

[Missy86]

A few more thoughts:

You do realize, (all of you that want to go the ""Risk" vs. "Benefit" style of promotion), that you will have left a woman with no place to go except guilt, grief and depression when breastfeeding isn't possible. It is bad enough now.

I'm not sure personally I would want to highlight the risks; it's a word with extremely negative connotations and as you point out vintage, a word which is likely to engender plenty of heartache and offence. I do see the point of those who are promoting the concept, but I agree, I'm not sure the word is right, it just seems to make things more messy.

But the more I think about it, the more I dislike the 'Breast is Best' message. What that says, without saying it, is 'Formula is Fine,' but what it also does, and this is key, is place breastfeeders into an exclusive group; it perpetuates the 'normality' of formula feeding. All women feed their babies. Most women FF. Some women BF. It places us outside the sphere of the ordinary, it makes us seem like we're some kind of elite, gifted group. It ties it in somehow with the class debate and makes it seem like something only the middle classes would do. It's no wonder really that there are so many assumptions that all breastfeeders have a superiority complex and that we are looking down our noses at formula feeders. This is not ok!!!

Without a doubt, in my personal circumstances, formula feeding is normalised. These are all comments I have had said to me:
(Around 4 months while NIP - a stranger) "Get him on solids love, then he'll be ok."
(Around 8 weeks when LO was ill - my neighbour) "Get him on the bottle, get some vitamins into him."
(Around 4 months - my sister-in-law) "Can he hold his bottle yet?"
(Around 4 months - my neighbour) "He's not put on enough weight, you must not be making up enough in his bottles, how many ounces do you put in them?"
(Around 3 months - a friend) "Get him off the tit."
(Around 6 months - a friend) "I bet you want to get him on the bottle."
(Around 7 months - my MIL's partner) "Can he not drink from a cup yet?"
(Around 1 month - a friend) "You can't feed here (in my own home) I don't want to see your breasts."
(Around 6 months - my husband's boss) "Oh I recommend you formula feed the next one."
How is it that it's either assumed that I am formula feeding (because that's what the majority do) or that I should be or that I want to be???
Can't we normalise breast feeding?
I agree with this:

This is part of the reason I don't like the 'breast is best' message. It's letting health professionals off the hook. It is like saying it's the ideal, but hey, formula is fine. Of course, formula is fine (in the western world!) but if breastfeeding was seen as 'normal' instead of 'best' then maybe health professionals would have to push themselves a bit harder to help women out.

For those women who perceive that they have 'failed' at breastfeeding, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they have been failed by the system, or even failed by society? How do we turn these viewpoints around? I don't know the answers, I'm just pondering...

Also:

I also believe that if woman CHOOSES formula, she should not get shit for that. Where are women's rights?? Yes you have an obligation to take care of your baby but you still have the right to decide what to do to your body.

I'm not sure I agree with feminism being brought into the debate. And isn't that a bit of an outmoded view of feminism anyway? - 'In order to be seen as equal to men and to compete with them on a level footing we have to be seen as the same'? We're not, we're different. But here we go, betrayed by our own biology again. Heaven forfend a woman should take pleasure in her own body's biological function. Isn't that another patriarchal construct, or even constraint? "Don't worry dears, you don't have to be tethered to the suckling little parasites you know... Come back to work my dear and then we'll all be rich. Mwah ha ha..."

Ok, being deliberately provocative there, but I really don't see why feminism and breastfeeding have to be mutally exclusive...

Ho hum.

The women in my family have inadequate milk supply. We were not failed by the system. Had it not been for formula or a wet nurse (which seems to have gone out of fashion) I would not be alive and neither would my mother. My mother was formula fed in the 1950s and I in the 1980s. My daughter was supplemented in the 2000s.

This whole argument about how it will stunt growth or lead to lower IQs is silly. My mother has a PhD in physics from an Ivy League university and I have an IQ that is more than high enough. My daughter is also just fine. She is 3 and speaks 3 different languages, understands basic astrophysics, and knows more Chemistry than most 14 year olds that I've met.

Not a single person EVER pushed FF on me. In fact, my hospital insisted she go straight to breast after my section and that I could not leave until they were sure I had BF down. The pediatrician pushed BF and so did all of my family and community. Even out in public I had asked where I could BF at a facility and they would say anywhere or offer a private room.

However, I'd like to point out that I disliked having to BF and I do think it is not for me, despite having done it for 6 months. It is an obligation, but I am just one of those people that likes my personal space and I don't think you should criticize a woman for that. I'll continue to do it for future children, but I don't think we should all have to fall in line with being absolutely in love with it or even liking it. Let's let women dislike it if they want to and not feel guilty. Maybe being supportive of them despite that might help them BF more.

I am ashamed to say that I too dislike bf, why I am not sure but I will give it another go

 

[Dragonfly]

nhkjlhl

That was a little over the top and not what any of us have said here. Actually, quite the opposite.

I am guessing someones edited their post?

 

[mia_leacey]

The women in my family have inadequate milk supply. We were not failed by the system. Had it not been for formula or a wet nurse (which seems to have gone out of fashion) I would not be alive and neither would my mother. My mother was formula fed in the 1950s and I in the 1980s. My daughter was supplemented in the 2000s.

This whole argument about how it will stunt growth or lead to lower IQs is silly. My mother has a PhD in physics from an Ivy League university and I have an IQ that is more than high enough. My daughter is also just fine. She is 3 and speaks 3 different languages, understands basic astrophysics, and knows more Chemistry than most 14 year olds that I've met.

Not a single person EVER pushed FF on me. In fact, my hospital insisted she go straight to breast after my section and that I could not leave until they were sure I had BF down. The pediatrician pushed BF and so did all of my family and community. Even out in public I had asked where I could BF at a facility and they would say anywhere or offer a private room.

However, I'd like to point out that I disliked having to BF and I do think it is not for me, despite having done it for 6 months. It is an obligation, but I am just one of those people that likes my personal space and I don't think you should criticize a woman for that. I'll continue to do it for future children, but I don't think we should all have to fall in line with being absolutely in love with it or even liking it. Let's let women dislike it if they want to and not feel guilty. Maybe being supportive of them despite that might help them BF more.

I am very sorry that you felt that you had to quote all of one of my previous posts in yours and I am genuinely sorry that it has obviously caused you so much offence.

I'd like to respond to your points if I may.

The women in my family have inadequate milk supply. We were not failed by the system.

The women to whom I was referring, who I happen to believe were failed by the system, (page 17, comment #163 if you're interested in looking it up) were specific women. Other posters have since replied that they also know, or have known, other women who appeared to have received inadequate support and advice, when they needed it. I hoped that I had made it clear that I am of course aware that this is not the case in every individual situation. Of course there are women with genuine supply issues. There are women who will freely admit that they were unhappy with the way their breastfeeding journeys turned out, and if there was any way in which I could make those women happier, that would make me happy. Is that wrong, to be motivated from a place of trying to help and support others?

This whole argument about how it will stunt growth or lead to lower IQs is silly. My mother has a PhD in physics from an Ivy League university and I have an IQ that is more than high enough. My daughter is also just fine. She is 3 and speaks 3 different languages, understands basic astrophysics, and knows more Chemistry than most 14 year olds that I've met.

I have NEVER in any of my single replies to this thread casted any aspersions over the IQ of someone who was formula fed. My own nephew happens to be a very smart FF 17year old and my husband is a very smart FF 33year old. Equally I was supporting those who disliked talking about the risks of FF. So I was actually in agreement with you, on that one.

However, I'd like to point out that I disliked having to BF and I do think it is not for me, despite having done it for 6 months. It is an obligation, but I am just one of those people that likes my personal space and I don't think you should criticize a woman for that. I'll continue to do it for future children, but I don't think we should all have to fall in line with being absolutely in love with it or even liking it. Let's let women dislike it if they want to and not feel guilty. Maybe being supportive of them despite that might help them BF more.

I have equally made it clear (or tried to make it clear, page 26, comment #255 - obviously I failed) that I am not in anyway trying to argue that all women should be forced to either give bf a try or to like it. I have said on more than one occassion that I wish we could all support one another more without defensiveness and upset getting in the way. It's so sad that it's such an emotive subject becuase it just means that opinions can't be expressed without people getting hurt. The point I was trying to make seems to have got totally lost.

Once again, I sincerely apologise for any offence I have caused. I was adding my musings to the musings of others, that was all. I'm truly sorry if I've not made myself clear.

 

[mia_leacey]

nhkjlhl

That was a little over the top and not what any of us have said here. Actually, quite the opposite.

I am guessing someones edited their post?

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[MommaAlexis]

nhkjlhl

That was a little over the top and not what any of us have said here. Actually, quite the opposite.

I am guessing someones edited their post?

I was wondering the same thing.

Yes, she did edit it. I'm not going to repeat it on here because obviously she thought she had reason to remove it so no need to cause a debate over it.


On another note, when we say we want more support, etc so people can breastfeed, we are NOT talking about the people who do not want to breastfeed, or cannot physically do so. We're talking about the people who WANT to, and have been misinformed into thinking they can't, or not given the information to be able to make an informed decision in the first place. If you were given all that information, and choose to FF, then it doesn't apply to you.

 

[mia_leacey]

On another note, when we say we want more support, etc so people can breastfeed, we are NOT talking about the people who do not want to breastfeed, or cannot physically do so. We're talking about the people who WANT to, and have been misinformed into thinking they can't, or not given the information to be able to make an informed decision in the first place. If you were given all that information, and choose to FF, then it doesn't apply to you.

Yes, ^WSS!

Thank you Momma Alexis for putting it so clearly.

 

[DLA]

Sorry guys, I believe it was me that introduced the topic of those who choose to FF. I only mentioned it because whenever I read a thread about BF/FF I always see people say things like "if you have a legit medical issue, it's oK" (did not actually read it on this thread I don't think), and I do disagree with that statement. So I was just explaining my opinion as a whole I suppose. Didn't mean to get it heated!

 

[Gunnhilde]

Sorry guys, I believe it was me that introduced the topic of those who choose to FF. I only mentioned it because whenever I read a thread about BF/FF I always see people say things like "if you have a legit medical issue, it's oK" (did not actually read it on this thread I don't think), and I do disagree with that statement. So I was just explaining my opinion as a whole I suppose. Didn't mean to get it heated!

Sorry I misunderstood.

 

[midori1999]

Sorry guys, I believe it was me that introduced the topic of those who choose to FF. I only mentioned it because whenever I read a thread about BF/FF I always see people say things like "if you have a legit medical issue, it's oK" (did not actually read it on this thread I don't think), and I do disagree with that statement. So I was just explaining my opinion as a whole I suppose. Didn't mean to get it heated!

So why exactly is it not ok to FF if you have a legitimate medical reason? Color me confused.

DLA did not mean it is not OK to FF if you have a legitimate medical reason, she means that is not the only reason it is OK, it is also ok to FF if that's 'just' because you want to. I agree with her, although I also admit that I would prefer it if all women would try to BF. Not for me to say what someone else can/can't or should do with their own body though.

 

[Gunnhilde]

Sorry guys, I believe it was me that introduced the topic of those who choose to FF. I only mentioned it because whenever I read a thread about BF/FF I always see people say things like "if you have a legit medical issue, it's oK" (did not actually read it on this thread I don't think), and I do disagree with that statement. So I was just explaining my opinion as a whole I suppose. Didn't mean to get it heated!

So why exactly is it not ok to FF if you have a legitimate medical reason? Color me confused.

DLA did not mean it is not OK to FF if you have a legitimate medical reason, she means that is not the only reason it is OK, it is also ok to FF if that's 'just' because you want to. I agree with her, although I also admit that I would prefer it if all women would try to BF. Not for me to say what someone else can/can't or should do with their own body though.

Sorry - I seem to have reading comprehension issues today and the thread is hard to follow.

 

[DLA]

Sorry guys, I believe it was me that introduced the topic of those who choose to FF. I only mentioned it because whenever I read a thread about BF/FF I always see people say things like "if you have a legit medical issue, it's oK" (did not actually read it on this thread I don't think), and I do disagree with that statement. So I was just explaining my opinion as a whole I suppose. Didn't mean to get it heated!

So why exactly is it not ok to FF if you have a legitimate medical reason? Color me confused.

No no no. I disagree with saying the only acceptable reason to FF is due to a medical condition. This is what I wrote in my previous post on the subject a couple pages back:

I also believe that if woman CHOOSES formula, she should not get shit for that. Where are women's rights?? Yes you have an obligation to take care of your baby but you still have the right to decide what to do to your body. You can totally raise a healthy baby on formula! I think that mom should be aware that BF is ideal and doesn't carry the risks that formula does but when we talk about risks, seriously just about everything you do or don't do has a risk. It shocks me that some people think all mother's should at least try. I disagree.

 

[DLA]

Sorry guys, I believe it was me that introduced the topic of those who choose to FF. I only mentioned it because whenever I read a thread about BF/FF I always see people say things like "if you have a legit medical issue, it's oK" (did not actually read it on this thread I don't think), and I do disagree with that statement. So I was just explaining my opinion as a whole I suppose. Didn't mean to get it heated!

So why exactly is it not ok to FF if you have a legitimate medical reason? Color me confused.

DLA did not mean it is not OK to FF if you have a legitimate medical reason, she means that is not the only reason it is OK, it is also ok to FF if that's 'just' because you want to. I agree with her, although I also admit that I would prefer it if all women would try to BF. Not for me to say what someone else can/can't or should do with their own body though.

Sorry - I seem to have reading comprehension issues today and the thread is hard to follow.

It is bit difficult to follow this thread, especially the last few pages.

 

[MommaAlexis]

As much as I may not understand choosing not to, I wouldn't want to take away that choice or insult you for making it. I'll just scratch my head silently, haha.

 

[vintage67]

Alex. You are 19 and don't even have a baby. Yet you have recommended PSYCH EVALUATIONS for women that don't want to breastfeed.

I deleted my post earlier because my son woke up abruptly and was crying and I did not want to leave it hanging there while I was gone offline for hours.

It is painfully obvious that many, many of you do not believe anyone has a legitimate medical reason not to BF, and that the right support can fix any breastfeeding issue. It can't.

The memories of what I went through with my first son are nearly 8 years old now and the pain is very fresh. I had plenty of support; 3 lactation consultants. I took the herbs, drank the teas and I had a hospital grade electric pump. The memories of son #2 are extremely fresh as they are only 7 months old. I didn't plan an 11 day hospitalization with a uterine infection when my son was a week old, or any of the other horrible things that happened.

What you people don't seem to get is when you prattle on about risks you are insulting people's babies. You are insulting the babies of women who love their children every much as you do.

I didn't suffer 3 miscarriages in a row and not give up to bring a baby into the world to give it substandard nutrition. But knowing this is what people think and want these things labeled kept me in the house with my first son, too humiliated to leave. And just yesterday, had me hiding a bottle under a towel in a grocery store and I had a horrific nightmare just last night from this very thread.

But, I will not go sit in a corner. I will speak up for women like me who did everything that we could to provide breastmilk for our children but nothing will ever be good enough for some of you.

You want a risks campaign, not benefits.
You want women humiliated and severely inconvenienced by prescription only.
You want a panel of people and a PSYCH EVALUATION for someone who wants to stop/not breastfeed.

Over the top? Those articles were over the top.

And again, this is a bad time and I have to log off soon to go pick my 8 year old up from a science day camp he is going to this week. I am driving 80 miles a day to take him there because my husband and I are such shit parents. I have an 8 year old son who unabashedly runs up to me and tells me he loves me in front of his friends. Shame how that awful formula ruined our bond. I thinkt he new baby is kind of fond of me as well.

 

[vintage67]

In the future, many of you may be humbled in future preganancies and with future babies and maybe, just maybe, someone will get in your face or you'll read something online how you didn't try hard enough, didn't want it hard enough, and we'll see how confident, guilt and grief free you will be able to be.

Go look at your baby right now. Imagine somebody saying things this awful about your child's life prognosis for future health and ailments.

Isn't it awful went your friends or family insult your breastfeeding? Been tolld your starving your baby? Ha! Try being told you're setting your kid up for cancer, low IQ, skin issues and illness. Let's see whose back is up then.

 

[xemmax]

Isn't it awful went your friends or family insult your breastfeeding? Been tolld your starving your baby? Ha! Try being told you're setting your kid up for cancer, low IQ, skin issues and illness. Let's see whose back is up then.

You are making this such a battle between people who use formula and people who breastfeed and frankly it is ridiculous. When you address your post to "you people" I take it you mean people who breastfeed? I have never been disrespectful to anyone for their method of feeding their children nor have I cast judgement, but you seem to be reinforcing a really horrible barrier between people who breastfeed and people who use formula when the majority of people don't see the need for such segregation.

Trying to belittle the insults people receive for breastfeeding by insinuating that it is nowhere near what you have to deal with is ridiculous and unnecessary, it isn't a competition at all and it's hypocritical to expect people to revise their comments when you are belittling their experiences at the same time.