Breast is not best, language, guilt and lactivism musings

[Liesje]

Then my kid would have definitely starved to death lol
We couldn't find a pediatrician for him that was accepting new patients until he was over two months old.

 

[leelee]

Well, I'll be honest and say I don't think it is wise to give formula to a 5 week old when there are alternatives ;-)

I'll be honest, in this entire thread, i haven't found one single BF mom that i felt was acting superior or rude until this post.
I think there is some confusion over how readily available and quickly sourced donor milk can be in certain places.
Theres nothing wrong with formula. Breast is breast. Breastfeeding isn't always and if a woman chooses to then FF over donor milk that's her decision and there's not a damn thing wrong with it.
Were all feeding our kids, we are all having the same issues and struggles. I quite like that breastfeeding has a slogan, i think its good and its getting more women educated on breastfeeding!

But it is okay to tell a Mum she was wrong for sticking with breastfeeding?

Do you actually read posts properly? I have repeated myself time and time again and said I think supplements such as formula, EBM or donor milk could be used, if a baby is becoming dehydrated.

It's like banging my head against a brick wall

 

[SnuggleMum]

Sorry, I don't want to offend you, but I honestly don't think continuing BF'ing to the point where your child is admitted to hospital for dehydration is the correct thing to do. I would rather my child had formula and was well than be dehydrated.

This was the post I was referring to. I know there have since been discussions about donor milk, expressed milk etc, but you do say that you think what a mother did isn't the correct thing to do. I'm sorry I find that offensive. I'm very sorry you find it so frustrating that I feel that way. I don't think telling a mother they should have done x, y or z is an acceptable thing to do (unless in a debrief or problem solving capacity, when requested).

 

[Super G]

Getting back to some of the original discussion, I think this article adds to it https://www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2012/02/breastfeeding-does-science-mislead.html?m=1

It talks about how some of the scientific research into infant feeding is misleading as some research studies start from a basis of formula feeding being the 'norm' and breastfeeding being the intervention.

I like the comparison of how we might talk about artificial blood if it was available. Would we say that using real blood reduces risk of say heart disease or that using artificial blood increases the risk. I think this is a less emotive comparison to some of those in the original articles, but I think people are missing the point when being offended by these. The original article isn't saying formula fed children are like scrawny chickens, its a comparison of the marketing language used to sell organic chickens with the marketing language used in reference to infant feeding & the effects.

I can understand why people don't like to say the 'risks of formula feeding'. I don't know how else to sum it up though
A risk makes something sound dangerous even if its not actually that likely.
Nevertheless I do think that information should be more about at least the 'increased chances' of x, y, z if you don't use breastmilk.

Oh and I feel offended when people talk about 'breastapo' or breastfeeding Nazi, this sums of some the reasons why https://www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2012/01/breastfeeding-nazi-for-real.html?m=0

 

[leelee]

Sorry, I don't want to offend you, but I honestly don't think continuing BF'ing to the point where your child is admitted to hospital for dehydration is the correct thing to do. I would rather my child had formula and was well than be dehydrated.

This was the post I was referring to. I know there have since been discussions about donor milk, expressed milk etc, but you do say that you think what a mother did isn't the correct thing to do. I'm sorry I find that offensive. I'm very sorry you find it so frustrating that I feel that way. I don't think telling a mother they should have done x, y or z is an acceptable thing to do (unless in a debrief or problem solving capacity, when requested).

And I explained further on what I meant. In fact, the OP of that post thanked me when I explained what I meant. You are the only one that is continuing to bring it up and try and make it out to be something it isn't. I am not explaining myself again.

 

[SnuggleMum]

Sorry, I don't want to offend you, but I honestly don't think continuing BF'ing to the point where your child is admitted to hospital for dehydration is the correct thing to do. I would rather my child had formula and was well than be dehydrated.

This was the post I was referring to. I know there have since been discussions about donor milk, expressed milk etc, but you do say that you think what a mother did isn't the correct thing to do. I'm sorry I find that offensive. I'm very sorry you find it so frustrating that I feel that way. I don't think telling a mother they should have done x, y or z is an acceptable thing to do (unless in a debrief or problem solving capacity, when requested).

And I explained further on what I meant. In fact, the OP of that post thanked me when I explained what I meant. You are the only one that is continuing to bring it up and try and make it out to be something it isn't. I am not explaining myself again.

I brought it up twice today, once because someone said what I said was offensive, and once because someone wanted to know what my intent was. I'm not just bringing it up for arguments sake - like you felt the need to reply when I mentioned it, I felt the need to reply when someone questioned/judged what I said.

 

[creatingpeace]

My issue with people using the excuse that donor milk isn't readily available is that if more women breastfed, and knew the importance of breastfeeding, and demanded it as a service, then milk banks would be invested in, doctors would know it was a safe option (there's still confusion over that in some people's minds) and the availability of human milk would increase.

If instead of 'breast is best' formula cans said 'breastmilk is the normal way to feed a human infant', would that be enough to start to change perceptions?

I also think that some women want to formula feed, regardless of the facts. Trying to reach those women is, initially at least, pointless. The women who want to BF but were let down and left believing that they couldn't continue are surely the ones to focus on first?

I also agree about the 'nazi' type phrases. Because wanting babies to have their natural source of food is so akin to genocide it's a shame godwin's law isn't an actual law-whoever first mentions the nazis, loses the argument by default.

excuse me but it is NOT AN EXCUSE it is a fact! Thanks!

 

[midori1999]

Going back to the original point...

We don't talk about the benefits of breathing unpolluted ('biologically normal') air, we talk about the risks of breathing polluted air. So, in the same way, there are no 'benefits' to breast feeding, it is bilogically normal, only risks to formula feeding. That is a fact and the truth is, whether you are saying 'benefits of breastfeeding' or 'risks of formula feeding', they both mean the same thing in the end, the difference is perception.

I say that as a three times 'failed' breastfeeder. I never felt, nor do I now feel, guilt for formula feeding though. I did the best I could with the information I had at the time and how can any person do better than that? Guilt comes from within, no one can 'make' you feel it.

What always strikes me more than anything on threads like these is that there are so many misconceptions about breastfeeding and without mentioning idividual cases, (because there is nothing to gain from that) it is obvious that plenty of women think they had to stop breastfeeding when they didn't have to or they weren't given the correct information about breastfeeding at the time, often by health professionals. This is part of the reason I don't like the 'breast is best' message. It's letting health professionals off the hook. It is like saying it's the ideal, but hey, formula is fine. Of course, formula is fine (in the western world!) but if breastfeeding was seen as 'normal' instead of 'best' then maybe health professionals would have to push themselves a bit harder to help women out.

 

[mia_leacey]

I've never understood why people assume someone defending a choice means they must be feeling guilt. I can only imagine like anything if your choice is taken away you don't accept it easily but parenting is challenging the whole way ...

But I don't understand why any comment you make is met with so much defensiveness?

That's not me trying to say it must be guilt, that's me just genuinely wondering why we're all so defensive?

(I do it too, all the time, defend why I started DS on solids early, defend why some nights we co-sleep, but defend why some nights we don't, defend why we combi-fed, then defend why I went back to EBF... I wish I was brave enough to say I don't give a damn!)

And I do wonder if the whole framework of the ways in which formula feeding (and breastfeeding for that matter) were represented was different... it might get rid of some of this defensiveness???

For example when I used the term 'misinformed' which incidentally was a reference to a previous post of mine wherein a midwife had given bad advice to a woman I personally know of, at least two people felt that they had to defend the fact that they had made informed choices, when I absolutely wasn't trying to imply that they hadn't!

As someone else put it - just wanting more people to be happy with their breastfeeding journeys *shrug.

 

[vintage67]

You do realize, (all of you that want to go the ""Risk" vs. "Benefit" style of promotion), that you will have left a woman with no place to go except guilt, grief and depression when breastfeeding isn't possible. It is bad enough now.

But after the "Breastfeeding panel of experts" and [gasp!] PSYCH EVAL that our telemarketing friend suggested, is over and a poor, unfortunate soul has officially been stamped and deemed "unable to breastfeed", and perhaps issued a little card to carry so as not be harassed by any self appointed lactivist enforcement officers, that iit s not possible at that point to bat your eyelashes and say, "but I never said anything about someone feeding formula. EVER. I only said they would be giving their child a higher risk of eczema, cancer, diarrhea, colic, allergies, chronic illness, diabetes and lowered IQ. I can't imagine anyone was offended."

This is like saying you can't make anyone feel guilt or anything else. Imagine.
"It's your own fault for feeling guilty over using formula! All I said was that you child through your choice of substandard, artificial feeding will now have a higher risk of chronic illness, obesity, cancer, colic, diarrhea, allergies and probably won't be as smart. I can't imagine why that would make anyone feel guilty if they really tried the best they could. I mean if you're really comfortable with your choice to open a can of articially manufactured, substandard infant nutrition then heavens me! what effect coudl what lil ole me has to say possible have?"

 

[midori1999]

Vintage, instead of the truth, would you prefer that everyone said 'there there, no need to worry, formula is as good as breastmilk' or would you prefer to have the facts and be able to make an informed decision?

As is said all the time on these threads. Formula is not poison. It is a perfectly acceptable breastmilk substitute. So if you have no choice but to use it, or even if you have a choice but prefer to use it anyway, what's the problem exactly?

All the percieved 'breastfeeders looking down their noses are women who FF' is just that. Percieved. There may be a tiny minority of women who do that, just as there are a tiny minority of women who disapprove of Bf, but these people are idiots and not representative of how the majority think.

 

[Missy86]

I gotta say I am really not looking forward to bf this time, the thought of bf put me off having anymore children for a long while

But I am more prepared this time, instead of just going in to it head first thinking I am a women I will be able to bf my child and all will be fine I know now about formula and how to make up bottles and such.

See the thing is I do think more advice needs to be given about formula, I knew nothing when I switched. The NHS wont tell you anything, there arnt any formula feeding volunteers that come to your house and show you how to make up a bottle like I had with bf

The quickest way to make a baby ill is not to make up a bottle properly, never mind what is in the formula but you are just left to your own devices

 

[Missy86]

Vintage, instead of the truth, would you prefer that everyone said 'there there, no need to worry, formula is as good as breastmilk' or would you prefer to have the facts and be able to make an informed decision?

As is said all the time on these threads. Formula is not poison. It is a perfectly acceptable breastmilk substitute. So if you have no choice but to use it, or even if you have a choice but prefer to use it anyway, what's the problem exactly?

All the percieved 'breastfeeders looking down their noses are women who FF' is just that. Percieved. There may be a tiny minority of women who do that, just as there are a tiny minority of women who disapprove of Bf, but these people are idiots and not representative of how the majority think.

I thank you for saying breastmilk substitute

 

[midori1999]

Well, that's what it is.

As for the NHS not giving you any advice on FF, they do publish a number of leaflets regarding FF and if any health professional refuses to give you advice on how to make up bottles correctly etc, then they are not doing their job properly. They are supposed to give you advice on it if you ask and should show/explain it to you at the hospital if you ask.

However, the fact remains, I have never ever heard of a women who really wanted to FF but wasn't able to, yet there arte plenty fo women who really wanted to BF but weren't able to.

 

[Missy86]

You can say that but the fact remains that I was given no help when I switched. The mw told me they were not allowed to advise me, If a women decides not to bf at all she should still be given advice as well

 

[SnuggleMum]

You can say that but the fact remains that I was given no help when I switched. The mw told me they were not allowed to advise me, If a women decides not to bf at all she should still be given advice as well

The baby friendly initiative has specific guidance on how women should be shown (in small groups or individually) how to prepare formula safely. There are some fab leaflets (I like the Unicef one) about the safe preperation of formula milk.

There are failings, I agree, just like with breastfeeding support. Unfortunately, Midwives don't have to undergo enough training (IMO) about infant feeding, and so while many feel qualified, they do offer poor support and education, to parents who are feeding in every method.

I recieved horrible breastfeeding support with my first, it shouldn't happen, but it does. Luckily there are groups campaigning for better care for all Mothers' and Babies.

 

[Missy86]

I just remembered a group that came to see me at home when I was struggling bf Rhys
They were called Little angels, I think I may give them a ring and see if they can offer me any advice on bf before I have Liam

 

[Missy86]

You can say that but the fact remains that I was given no help when I switched. The mw told me they were not allowed to advise me, If a women decides not to bf at all she should still be given advice as well

The baby friendly initiative has specific guidance on how women should be shown (in small groups or individually) how to prepare formula safely. There are some fab leaflets (I like the Unicef one) about the safe preperation of formula milk.

There are failings, I agree, just like with breastfeeding support. Unfortunately, Midwives don't have to undergo enough training (IMO) about infant feeding, and so while many feel qualified, they do offer poor support and education, to parents who are feeding in every method.

I recieved horrible breastfeeding support with my first, it shouldn't happen, but it does. Luckily there are groups campaigning for better care for all Mothers' and Babies.

I think that is the crux of the issue for me, dont punish the baby if the mother has decided to ff with no advice for the mum

 

[SnuggleMum]

I just remembered a group that came to see me at home when I was struggling bf Rhys
They were called Little angels, I think I may give them a ring and see if they can offer me any advice on bf before I have Liam

You'd be very welcome at any La leche league meetings before Bany arrives Roo, they are a great source of support and information

 

[Missy86]

I just remembered a group that came to see me at home when I was struggling bf Rhys
They were called Little angels, I think I may give them a ring and see if they can offer me any advice on bf before I have Liam

You'd be very welcome at any La leche league meetings before Bany arrives Roo, they are a great source of support and information

Thank you I will look into it