Glamour modelling..

[special_kala]

This is going to sound really stupid but i have never really thought into it that much, to me its just page 3, its only a pair of boobs.

I guess it could be argued that im just a standard case of accepting how we are viewed by men. (that sounds sarcastic but it isnt meant to be)

Surely the woman has the power in this though, she is making money exploiting mens weakness?

Half naked men get plastered around the place alot, on advertisements and tv adverts.

 

[Sarahkka]

This debate thread rocks! Such well-articulated arguments - I am finding myself nodding and agreeing with points made by everyone!

I don't think I have any clear answers here.

Yes, it is up to the individual to take responsibility for their own self-esteem and happiness. And yes, one of the most effective ways of being the change you want to see in the world is to vote with your dollar. If Page 3 bothers you, you can make darn sure that The Sun doesn't ever get a dime from you. And you can let Sun advertisers know that you wont be buying their products either, if they support a paper that has a main feature of casual T&A. Each of us has that perogative.

But I also agree that maintaining one's own self-esteem and that of our children can be an upwards battle when we are bombarded by products and advertising that use revolting gender stereotyping. It can feel pretty overwhelming when it is everywhere you turn.
Exhausting, actually.

By the way, I picked up a complimentary copy of the Sun today and there was no sunshine girl. Maybe it's dying out?

 

[Foogirl]

My issue isn't with how 'perfect' page 3 boobs are compared to my own- it's with the lax attitude to soft core pornography and the way it's used in our society. Despite our best efforts as parents, we *are* shaped hugely by the attitudes of the society and culture we live in. And yes we can choose not to buy mini skirts for children, and not to buy The Sun, but we still ultimately live in a place and time where it's deemed acceptable to feature pornographic nudity in daily paper, to have explicit, violent sexuality in our pop music for children, to use provocative pictures of women to sell products to both males and females. These are just drops in the ocean of perpetuating that a woman's value is inherently, intrinsically linked to her appearance, and these ideas are cemented in young minds well well well before they have the capacity to contextualise or critically assess them. By the time we as parents can have a meaningful conversation about it, it's already too late in my opinion.

I know I seem to be veering away from page 3 and leaning towards the children issue, but I hope I have been able to explain why I feel page 3 and the casual porn culture makes me feel the way I do.

I don't think we should have to battle against the common idea that it's ok to display pornography and sexuality in that way. I think we should be able to live in a society where females are treated as the equals that they are, and that pornography and sexuality, however soft, should be treated as adult issues.


ETA- my point is, self esteem shouldn't be a battle. We shouldn't have to learn to find good self-esteem in a place where it's hard to come by.

I agree to a point, and I do think the wider issue of that portrayal in the media needs to be cut back. But it happens the other way too. Because of this, men are portrayed as idiots led by their willies and that's just not true either. Some may hold those values on both sides but in the main, men and women respect each other and this has actually got better, not worse with the passage of time.

Perhaps it's because I live and work in a fairly male dominated world. Sure I've encountered a very sexist element at work and there is banter about how women look and act, but it happens to the guys too. And it is a minority of guys who do it, most I work with respect me because I'm good at mt job and the fact I'm a woman never comes in to it. I'd much rather be in my job now, than in the 70s or 80s when the "dolly bird" attitude was far more prevalent or in the 40s or 50s where I'd hardly have been given the chance to do it at all. Along with the "bad," there is the good. The media, and movies also have a much larger number of strong female role models for young girls to look up to. If your daughter chooses Jordan or Cheryl Cole rather than Jessica Ennis or Nicola Benedetti or michelle Mone, then as a parent, you perhaps have sent them the wrong message.

Self esteem should never be a battle, and never has been for me, but I suspect those who don't have it are dissatisfied with more than just their bodies.

Special K, is right, that the media and advertising are given too much power. But I do wonder if they are actually given. too much credit for the power they actually have, especially over children. One such area we are told they have this is with "pester power" from children. Abby sees TV adverts and tells us she wants what she sees, we tell her it's plastic tat and she'll get something new on her birthday or at Christmas. End of conversation. Again it's down to strong parenting.

 

[Sarahkka]

I avoid pester power by eliminating regular TV.
We use Netflix and the boys get to watch mama-approved programs without the ads screaming at them.

I think the times have changed for the better, definitely, but I still think we have a long way to go. For both genders, actually. When I don't have to worry about my boys being laughed at or made to feel bad if they want to play princess dress-up or play with dolls, I will feel like we are getting to a better place of gender equality.

 

[tina3747]

But what's wrong with men drooling over women, finding them attractive ect? Isn't it a basic human instinct... Procreation wouldn't exist if men didn't find women attractive so isn't it the men who are the weak ones in this rather than the women ? They're earning the money!
The breast feeding issue too... Breasts ARE sexual IMO I honestly think they're a dual purpose, I'm sure they are meant for feeding our children firstly and more importantly and i blieve attract the opposite sex... Otherwise Why are men so obsessed with them ?!

 

[Sarahkka]

But what's wrong with men drooling over women, finding them attractive ect? Isn't it a basic human instinct... Procreation wouldn't exist if men didn't find women attractive so isn't it the men who are the weak ones in this rather than the women ? They're earning the money!
The breast feeding issue too... Breasts ARE sexual IMO I honestly think they're a dual purpose, I'm sure they are meant for feeding our children firstly and more importantly and i blieve attract the opposite sex... Otherwise Why are men so obsessed with them ?!

Do you think you can name a woman who has not been made to feel very uncomfortable, or even threatened, by unwanted sexual attention at some point in her life?
We aren't supposed to walk anywhere alone due to the risk of sexual assault.
I think that is the dark, but very real, side of a culture that encourages overt sexualization without also defining appropriate context.

I think we should celebrate and enjoy sexuality, but we need way more discussion, way more understanding and etiquette around nonthreatening ways to enjoy it.

Casual soft porn in a morning paper doesn't really foster the necessary respect for that, in my opinion.

I don't have a problem with porn, but context is important.

 

[Sarahkka]

The need for better discussion and understanding of sexuality is really well discussed here:

https://jezebel.com/5950658/if-its-not-a-secret-its-not-safe-girls-boys-and-the-pleasure-paradox

I really liked the final paragraph:

The answer, of course, isn't to treat girls' sexuality like the Ring of Doom, something that must be kept secret in order to be kept safe. As Ford writes, "we do our girls no favours by refusing to acknowledge the raw complexities of their own sexual desires." But helping girls own their own pleasure will take more than explicit encouragement to masturbate. It means teaching men of all ages, in no uncertain terms, that women's sexuality belongs to women. Just as we need to reiterate that sexy Halloween costumes and short skirts aren't an invitation to harassment, so too we need to remind our boys -– loudly and clearly -– that girls' interest in sex isn't an open invitation. Until we do that, the grim "policing" of young women's sexuality will continue.

 

[RedRose]

But what's wrong with men drooling over women, finding them attractive ect? Isn't it a basic human instinct... Procreation wouldn't exist if men didn't find women attractive so isn't it the men who are the weak ones in this rather than the women ? They're earning the money!
The breast feeding issue too... Breasts ARE sexual IMO I honestly think they're a dual purpose, I'm sure they are meant for feeding our children firstly and more importantly and i blieve attract the opposite sex... Otherwise Why are men so obsessed with them ?!

Do you think you can name a woman who has not been made to feel very uncomfortable, or even threatened, by unwanted sexual attention at some point in her life?
We aren't supposed to walk anywhere alone due to the risk of sexual assault.
I think that is the dark, but very real, side of a culture that encourages overt sexualization without also defining appropriate context.

I think we should celebrate and enjoy sexuality, but we need way more discussion, way more understanding and etiquette around nonthreatening ways to enjoy it.

Casual soft porn in a morning paper doesn't really foster the necessary respect for that, in my opinion.

I don't have a problem with porn, but context is important.

Totally with you on this. Will be back to read your link later!

 

[lhancock90]

But what's wrong with men drooling over women, finding them attractive ect? Isn't it a basic human instinct... Procreation wouldn't exist if men didn't find women attractive so isn't it the men who are the weak ones in this rather than the women ? They're earning the money!
The breast feeding issue too... Breasts ARE sexual IMO I honestly think they're a dual purpose, I'm sure they are meant for feeding our children firstly and more importantly and i blieve attract the opposite sex... Otherwise Why are men so obsessed with them ?!

I'm a little confused by this.
Are you saying the most important purpose of breasts is for sexual attraction?

 

[tina3747]

But what's wrong with men drooling over women, finding them attractive ect? Isn't it a basic human instinct... Procreation wouldn't exist if men didn't find women attractive so isn't it the men who are the weak ones in this rather than the women ? They're earning the money!
The breast feeding issue too... Breasts ARE sexual IMO I honestly think they're a dual purpose, I'm sure they are meant for feeding our children firstly and more importantly and i blieve attract the opposite sex... Otherwise Why are men so obsessed with them ?!

I'm a little confused by this.
Are you saying the most important purpose of breasts is for sexual attraction?

Sorry, I really need to read over my posts before I press return!!
I meant firstly and most importantly they are there for feeding our babies, but I do believe there's something inbuilt that makes them attractive... As in to turn men on to then procreate!

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the whole page 3 thing. But the whole glamour modelling issue, fair play. If that's what makes them happy and earning them a living so be it.

 

[Twister]

I don't think anyone is really disputing glamour modelling as a career choice, fair play to any woman who has the confidence and self esteem to do it. But there is a time and a place for it imo, and a so called 'family' newspaper isn't it.

 

[Jaylynne]

For real?! I don't care if some woman wants to "glamour model" but put it in its proper place and not in a NEWSpaper that a 10 year old boy can buy. How gross would I feel if I were a glamour model and a boy was ogling my boobs. Totally inappropriate.

Side note, this is what I really don't get. If it's so stinkin commonplace that a daily newspaper publishes topless photos why on earth is it such a big deal to the public about breastfeeding in public? So you're saying a bloke can read/ogle the page 3 girl in a cafe but throws a fit about a woman breastfeeding her child a few tables down? Holy double standard batman!

 

[tina3747]

This debate thread rocks! Such well-articulated arguments - I am finding myself nodding and agreeing with points made by everyone!

I don't think I have any clear answers here.

Yes, it is up to the individual to take responsibility for their own self-esteem and happiness. And yes, one of the most effective ways of being the change you want to see in the world is to vote with your dollar. If Page 3 bothers you, you can make darn sure that The Sun doesn't ever get a dime from you. And you can let Sun advertisers know that you wont be buying their products either, if they support a paper that has a main feature of casual T&A. Each of us has that perogative.

But I also agree that maintaining one's own self-esteem and that of our children can be an upwards battle when we are bombarded by products and advertising that use revolting gender stereotyping. It can feel pretty overwhelming when it is everywhere you turn.
Exhausting, actually.

By the way, I picked up a complimentary copy of the Sun today and there was no sunshine girl. Maybe it's dying out?

Sarahkka- I agree with something on every post too!!