Have You Considered This?

[Foogirl]

Somewhat off topic but in terms of bullying, I really do think that a large proportion of kids WILL be bullied or picked on and as a parent it's about how you teach your kids to stick up for themselves or not be affected and come out as unscathed as possible. We can control a certain number of things but realistically kids can be picked on for pretty much anything and most will probably have someone try at some point or other perhaps.

I know, and this is always the objective argument put to me. I do understand it, as I said. But as a parent it is my instinct to protect my child from being bullied in the first place. There are obviously things a parent can do nothing about, but just as I wouldn't send Abby to school in a bowl haircut with NHS specs, I'd be wary about introducing anything to her life that could open her up to being picked on, if you know what I mean?

 

[redpoppy]

Somewhat off topic but in terms of bullying, I really do think that a large proportion of kids WILL be bullied or picked on and as a parent it's about how you teach your kids to stick up for themselves or not be affected and come out as unscathed as possible. We can control a certain number of things but realistically kids can be picked on for pretty much anything and most will probably have someone try at some point or other perhaps.

I know, and this is always the objective argument put to me. I do understand it, as I said. But as a parent it is my instinct to protect my child from being bullied in the first place. There are obviously things a parent can do nothing about, but just as I wouldn't send Abby to school in a bowl haircut with NHS specs, I'd be wary about introducing anything to her life that could open her up to being picked on, if you know what I mean?

I totally understand what you mean, especially coming from a former NHS glasses wearer but I suppose if I put something else to you it might seem a little different. Gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfilment.

Someone in my extended social circle (someone older) who is Asian spent 20something years in a TERRIBLY unhappy marriage (which ironically was a "love" marriage and not an arranged one) but after three days of being married she knew she had made the biggest mistake of her life and also gone against her whole family to do so. She stayed in the marriage out of whatever shame or reasons she had.

Anyway, at the age of 40ish she broke it off with her OH and quite soon afterwards fell in love with a working class black guy. Her whole family (actually not all but most) was up in arms (What a middle class Asian marrying a working class black guy with no degree!?!?!) and some of her family members still refuse to meet him however many years on it is now when they are married. But some explained that she should hide the relationship as her kids being part of the Asian culture in that area would be picked on and also never find suitable asian partners because they have a black step dad.

Now she could try and live her life like that but it just seems wrong on an essential level. It is sad that her daughter would have liked to marry someone who was culturally form the same region but more than likely it may not happen. And her son may very well have been picked on or had comments made. But right is right and wrong is wrong and you can't live life by these things.


I know what you mean but I was pretty much the only Asian in the town I grew up in (who was also poor, was driven to school in a car with a different colour door which had a huge dent in it, had NHS glasses and braces and had free school dinners) and it was tough. But I think its made me more confident and thicker skinned for the most part. It may have broken some other kids but its about how you're taught to deal with a situation and how much love and confidence you're blessed with through whatever life you lead perhaps. Also humour plays a huge part. I don't know. My nephew was being picked on by older boys (him being 8 and them 10 at the time) for having glasses (which weren't NHS by the way) and he was talked to, taught what to say, how to fight because although they weren't getting violent he felt physically threatened and how to ignore/laugh it off etc. He's not being picked on now.

I do understand what you're saying but I suppose we need to try and move forward and not live in fear maybe?

 

[Buffy71]

My nephew came out when he was 19. Made no difference to me - my father (his grandfather) found it difficult, but I think that's generational.

If H tells me in the future I will be sad, but only because it will make her life more difficult, as we still live in a homophobic society, and because that might mean that she does not have the opportunity to have her own child, which as we all know now, is the most amazing and fulfilling experience available to humankind.

Ooh I'm filling up!!
xx

I think things are rapidly geting better. I'm 30 and my youngest sister is 24 and there is a massive difference between how homosexuality is considered by her same age friends conpared with mine. When we where all 18 and someone came out it was a big deal, when they where 18 and someone came out it wasn't. If it continues the same way, by the time our babies are 18 it wont matter at all and that means there will be the same oppurtunity's for gay people, including making it easier to become parents if they wish.

I really really hope so

 

[Foogirl]

I do understand what you're saying but I suppose we need to try and move forward and not live in fear maybe?

All very good points and I do think on one level you are right. But what bothers me is this...

Gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfilment.

Should it not be about our children rather than about us? On the one hand it is important they are exposed to the real world and understand life can be difficult and the only thing to do is adjust the way you deal with it. But on the other hand, is my happiness more important than hers? Should I make choices which will be to her detriment, purely because it is what I want? Or should I ensure that my choices impact on us both in a positive way.

I think it is very much catch 22. Things won't get better until gay parents become more acceptable to the wider public. But to use today's children as a tool to reach that goal, seems rather callous.

In a different (but relevant) situation, we've discovered the school in our catchment area is pretty much a sink school and they've deliberately put our estate in the catchment (there are many schools closer) in order to bring it up to a better level. Long term goal is a great one. Abby is not going to be one of the children in this particular social engineering experiment. I see no need for her to be at risk of failure when we can provide alternatives - just as we'll buy her cool glasses when she gets them!

I flip flop on this particular issue so much, probably because both arguments, to me, are equally valid.

 

[Claire300]

My sister in law is 34. As far as we know, she's never had a boyfriend/girlfriend (even though she's pretty and has a nice figure). She has zero self confidence, and has issues on top of issues which means she won't give anyone a chance. She has said she's made up her mind that she's just destined to be alone and that is that. I've always thought just how sad that is, that she's already decided she'll never share her life with anyone, male or female.
If my LO decided when he's older that he is homosexual, then at least he would have someone in his life. I'd rather him be gay than alone, so it really doesn't bother me in the slightest. I hope this makes sense!

 

[redpoppy]

I do understand what you're saying but I suppose we need to try and move forward and not live in fear maybe?

All very good points and I do think on one level you are right. But what bothers me is this...

Gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfilment.

Should it not be about our children rather than about us? On the one hand it is important they are exposed to the real world and understand life can be difficult and the only thing to do is adjust the way you deal with it. But on the other hand, is my happiness more important than hers? Should I make choices which will be to her detriment, purely because it is what I want? Or should I ensure that my choices impact on us both in a positive way.

I think it is very much catch 22. Things won't get better until gay parents become more acceptable to the wider public. But to use today's children as a tool to reach that goal, seems rather callous.

In a different (but relevant) situation, we've discovered the school in our catchment area is pretty much a sink school and they've deliberately put our estate in the catchment (there are many schools closer) in order to bring it up to a better level. Long term goal is a great one. Abby is not going to be one of the children in this particular social engineering experiment. I see no need for her to be at risk of failure when we can provide alternatives - just as we'll buy her cool glasses when she gets them!

I flip flop on this particular issue so much, probably because both arguments, to me, are equally valid.

Yeah but it's like the right of any minority in society to have children. To say those who are wronged, whether it's about race, disability, lack of rights or whatever should perhaps not have children for their children's sake is going into very dangerous territory. Taking that to an extreme someone could conclude that only very wealthy people who can home school their children and guarantee they will not suffer any adversity should be the only people to have kids. That anyone who is a minority that may suffer abuse should perhaps not have children. And I know you don't think that. Adversity is a part of life. If you're short sighted it's very likely you'll have shortsighted kids and they may be picked on at school for wearing glasses. Same if you've got ginger hair. People aren't USING their children to achieve acceptance, people are having children for the reason that it is within human nature to have children.

As for cool glasses, kids can still make fun of cool glasses. My nephew was wearing cool glasses. But the term four eyes doesn't come with the caveat that "if the person is wearing cool glasses they get a free pass"

 

[WW1]

Such an incredibly interesting thread! Just a couple of points

Redpoppy - I totally agree that children will find anything to bully about. In my time as a teacher I've dealt with children being picked on because they're fat, skinny, too tall, too short, wrong hair colour, wrong trainers.... The list is endless. All we can do is help children to deal with the situation and give them lots of love and support. Love and support builds resilience and it is resilience which allows people to deal with adversity.

My thoughts on gay adoption are that any loving parents who could offer a stable, caring home would likely make great parents. My sister and her fiancee hope to have children some day and I don't doubt for a second they'd make great parents. The child would have 2 mummies and lots of other social influences to give a rounded upbringing. I know they'll help their LO to deal with any negativity. Also, for many children up for adoption, their life has already been filled with instability and insecurity. To provide a loving, stable environment would surely be better than continuing along the same path.

In the past generation, attitudes towards gay people have improved significantly. However, intolerance remains, as it does towards all minority groups. All we can do is stand up to intolerance when we see it and teach our children to be loving and accepting of others. If we take the attitudes on this thread as anything to go by, our future generations are in good hands

 

[Foogirl]

Yeah but it's like the right of any minority in society to have children. To say those who are wronged, whether it's about race, disability, lack of rights or whatever should perhaps not have children for their children's sake is going into very dangerous territory. Taking that to an extreme someone could conclude that only very wealthy people who can home school their children and guarantee they will not suffer any adversity should be the only people to have kids. That anyone who is a minority that may suffer abuse should perhaps not have children. And I know you don't think that. Adversity is a part of life. If you're short sighted it's very likely you'll have shortsighted kids and they may be picked on at school for wearing glasses. Same if you've got ginger hair. People aren't USING their children to achieve acceptance, people are having children for the reason that it is within human nature to have children.

As for cool glasses, kids can still make fun of cool glasses. My nephew was wearing cool glasses. But the term four eyes doesn't come with the caveat that "if the person is wearing cool glasses they get a free pass"

I guess that's another problem. I see it as a priviledge, not a right.

I'm also not suggesting that individuals are using their own children, just that in order for society to become more accepting, society has to make the situation the rule rather than the exception and that those children in the firing line in the initial stages have to just suck it up in order for it to get to that stage.

I know kids can make fun of cool glasses - and there's nothing I can do about it, I just want to lessen the chances! There's always something which can be done about ginger hair if it becomes a problem!

I really, am genuinely on the fence on this one. I understand and accept all your arguments as very valid, there is just a small part of me that can't reconcile the potential long term effect on the child and that if there is a way to lessen the risks to a child, I prefer for that option to be taken.

 

[Try Rocking]

I haven't read more than a few posts because I only have a minute but if Amira came to me and told me she was a lesbian I would be ok with it. I am not very religious but I do pray for her every night and in my prayers I always hope that when she is older she finds the perfect person (I do not say man or woman because that will be her choice) who will treat her right and love her with all of their heart. I also add that I'd love for that person to get along amazingly well with me and my husband

One day I would love grandchildren and if her and her partner (be it man or woman) decide to have children that's wonderful. If they don't then so be it. She can make these decisions when she's older and know that we'll think no less of her regardless. We both just want her to be happy, that is all that matters.

 

[Tegans Mama]

Gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfilment.

Are you serious??? I don't even know what to say to that. Perhaps we will never "get rid" of homophobia until people stop having this attitude.

 

[Foogirl]

Gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfilment.

Are you serious??? I don't even know what to say to that. Perhaps we will never "get rid" of homophobia until people stop having this attitude.

I think you've read that out of context TM. It certainly wasn't meant as an offensive observation, more that having children is simply the next natural step in a relationship.

If anything, it's my responses you'd be taking issue with!

 

[WW1]

Gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfilment.

Are you serious??? I don't even know what to say to that. Perhaps we will never "get rid" of homophobia until people stop having this attitude.

From reading redpoppy's posts for some time, I'd say she did NOT mean this in any derogatory way.

I think she means (correct me if I'm wrong redpoppy), that gay people have children just as straight people do - because it'll make them happy!

 

[Tegans Mama]

Gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfilment.

Are you serious??? I don't even know what to say to that. Perhaps we will never "get rid" of homophobia until people stop having this attitude.

I think you've read that out of context TM. It certainly wasn't meant as an offensive observation, more that having children is simply the next natural step in a relationship.

If anything, it's my responses you'd be taking issue with!

I suppose you are right - however you didn't post saying in a round about way that gay people are selfish for having children.

 

[Foogirl]

I suppose you are right - however you didn't post saying in a round about way that gay people are selfish for having children.

And neither did RedPoppy. Definitely not her intention.

 

[WW1]

Gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfilment.

Are you serious??? I don't even know what to say to that. Perhaps we will never "get rid" of homophobia until people stop having this attitude.

I think you've read that out of context TM. It certainly wasn't meant as an offensive observation, more that having children is simply the next natural step in a relationship.

If anything, it's my responses you'd be taking issue with!

I suppose you are right - however you didn't post saying in a round about way that gay people are selfish for having children.

I don't think that's what redpoppy posted either. When DH and I decided to try for children, we did so because we wanted one. Why? Because ultimately the joy of having children would make us happy. Gay or straight, makes no difference. Having children is about happiness and fulfillment.

It may appear the way you've read it but if you read the remainder of redpoppy's posts I'm sure you'll see this is not her meaning.

Again - sorry if I'm speaking out of turn redpoppy. I just didn't want this to spiral into something you never intended

 

[WW1]

I'm not copying you, Foogirl! We seem to be posting the same thing at the same time

 

[Foogirl]

I'm not copying you, Foogirl! We seem to be posting the same thing at the same time

lol, I'll let you do the next one!

 

[Tegans Mama]

I don't think that's what redpoppy posted either. When DH and I decided to try for children, we did so because we wanted one. Why? Because ultimately the joy of having children would make us happy. Gay or straight, makes no difference. Having children is about happiness and fulfillment.

It may appear the way you've read it but if you read the remainder of redpoppy's posts I'm sure you'll see this is not her meaning.

Again - sorry if I'm speaking out of turn redpoppy. I just didn't want this to spiral into something you never intended

Having children is not just about what you gain from it. It is about what you can give to your child/ren. I suppose I may be reading between the lines, but saying "gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfillment" makes me think that the aim of that statement was to say that gay people having children is a selfish act committed without thought or care about the lives of any future children.

 

[Jody R]

I want Joseph to be happy with someone he loves and who loves him.

If that someone is the same sex as him then that's fine by me, although I worry that DH may not be so understanding.

My only concerns would be that other people will not be so understanding or accepting and I don't want my son to have any difficulties in his life. If he has to face any form of bigotry I will hate those people forever (I already hate the first person he falls in love with who breaks his heart). Homophobia disgusts me in the same way that racism does.

He's my son. There is so much more in the world to worry about than his falling for someone of the same sex. Ands long as the sex he has his safe and loving then I will have done my job, who he has that sex with is his own business (unless they break his heart and have me to deal with).

 

[WW1]

Having children is not just about what you gain from it. It is about what you can give to your child/ren. I suppose I may be reading between the lines, but saying "gay people are by having children just thinking about their own happiness and life fulfillment" makes me think that the aim of that statement was to say that gay people having children is a selfish act committed without thought or care about the lives of any future children.

I really don't think that was what was intended. Of course you are right - having children is about what you can give to them well. But when choosing to have children, whether it's going to make you happy must be a consideration, surely? After all, would people choose to have children if they thought it was going to make them unhappy? I think it's unlikely.

I do think you're putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 here. If redpoppy did mean it as you read it then I'd agree it is out of order. But she didn't - I'm 100% sure of it.