The Really Useful TCM Thread

[Sizzles]

To be honest my OH is really not keen on the 'assisted' approach because of all the stuff I have to do and suffer (though I don't suppose he's that keen on his part either!) So yes, I'd agree that making it as easy as possible is the way forward. I don't care about taking drugs, injecting, sticking my legs in stirrups etc. if I get a baby at the end of it, but he'd really rather avoid such things! Still, I read on another thread today that after 3 years of trying you only stand a 3% chance of conceiving naturally, which was rather depressing (we've been trying 2.5 years) so it's looking likely that it's IVF or no baby...

 

[TurboTurtle80]

I'm w you Sizzles. My OH is pretty opposed to assisted. Not bcz of the cost, but bcz of how invasive it is. I started by getting all the tests and doing what the doctors were telling me to, but once I had to go thru the cervical biopsy, after the uterine biopsy, that was it for him. He couldn't take how much pain I was in for some nonsense (not to mention no for two weeks lol). We also decided against Clomid.

For me, its natural or nothing and I'm so perfectly at peace with that. I've read stories of women having their first child at 47, and honestly I feel so healthy that I can handle it just fine. I also hear that ladies with PCOS have higher success rates once they reach 35, so I feel confident I'll get there. I'm in no hurry and on God's schedule, not mine.

 

[CaliDreaming]

To be honest my OH is really not keen on the 'assisted' approach because of all the stuff I have to do and suffer (though I don't suppose he's that keen on his part either!) So yes, I'd agree that making it as easy as possible is the way forward. I don't care about taking drugs, injecting, sticking my legs in stirrups etc. if I get a baby at the end of it, but he'd really rather avoid such things! Still, I read on another thread today that after 3 years of trying you only stand a 3% chance of conceiving naturally, which was rather depressing (we've been trying 2.5 years) so it's looking likely that it's IVF or no baby...

Well at least his part won't be anywhere near as hard as your.

That stat is a little more bleak that the one provided by my insurance company.

Infertile couples whose fertility test results are normal are diagnosed with "unexplained infertility." Of all couples with unexplained infertility who do not seek treatment, about 35% will naturally become pregnant within 3 years, and 45% do so within 7 years

Also, are you going straight to IVF or are you going to try Clomid/IUI first?

 

[Sizzles]

Turbo - I find your attitude inspiring and only wish I could be so positive about things. I can't bear to think of it not happening, but don't really want to go down the assisted route. Equally, I really don't want to be the other side of 40 when I'm having my first baby (partly because OH is 7 years older than me and no matter what anyone says, I know he will feel it more at his age, at that age, if you see what I mean!)

I have to confess I don't actually know what IUI is, but as I understand it Clomid is used where ov doesn't happen properly, which I don't seem to have a problem with. I didn't see a consultant at my first appointment, only the lead fertility nurse (which at the time I was quite shocked and disappointed about) but from what she said and from what the follow-up letter said, they will just refer for IVF. However, I am due to see a consultant next time round, so it will be interesting to see what they say. I'm going to arm myself with a notebook to take notes, but more importantly, to annoy them by asking lots and lots of questions!

I am surprised they're not bothering to do the lap and dye or any of that mallarky. All I've had done (hah!) is a range of blood tests, an internal swab, an internal and external scan. OH has had 2 SAs (still waiting for results on the second one, but the first came back fine). Seems a little bit like jumping the gun to go straight for IVF; what do you girls think? Should I contemplate asking for some other investigations? If so, what?

 

[CaliDreaming]

Turbo - I find your attitude inspiring and only wish I could be so positive about things. I can't bear to think of it not happening, but don't really want to go down the assisted route. Equally, I really don't want to be the other side of 40 when I'm having my first baby (partly because OH is 7 years older than me and no matter what anyone says, I know he will feel it more at his age, at that age, if you see what I mean!)

I have to confess I don't actually know what IUI is, but as I understand it Clomid is used where ov doesn't happen properly, which I don't seem to have a problem with. I didn't see a consultant at my first appointment, only the lead fertility nurse (which at the time I was quite shocked and disappointed about) but from what she said and from what the follow-up letter said, they will just refer for IVF. However, I am due to see a consultant next time round, so it will be interesting to see what they say. I'm going to arm myself with a notebook to take notes, but more importantly, to annoy them by asking lots and lots of questions!

I am surprised they're not bothering to do the lap and dye or any of that mallarky. All I've had done (hah!) is a range of blood tests, an internal swab, an internal and external scan. OH has had 2 SAs (still waiting for results on the second one, but the first came back fine). Seems a little bit like jumping the gun to go straight for IVF; what do you girls think? Should I contemplate asking for some other investigations? If so, what?

Are you in the UK? It seems like things are done a lot differently in the U.S. Because the vast majority of us here have to pay for everything out of pocket for infertility treatments, hardly anyone goes straight to IVF before trying other, less expensive options.

Over here, for women with no other problems like blocked tubes, the first step would usually be Clomid. Clomid is not just for women who don't ovulate. It's also used a lot with women who ovulate regularly and have unexplained infertility because even though you may ovulate, the Clomid will help you more and/or better quality eggs so you get a better chance for conception.

For women over 35, a lot of times they will give you Clomid but have you get an IUI at the same time to improve your chances. IUI is similar to IVF. With IVF they retrieve eggs from you, fertilize those eggs with your partner's sperm in the lab, and then insert the fertilized egg in your uterus in hopes that it will implant.

With IUI, they just insert your partner's sperm into your uterus to make it easier for them to reach the egg both because of the shorter distance to travel and because you don't have to worry about having enough CM, the right ph CM, etc. For IUI, you have to have unblocked tubes, so it's a good intermediate step before proceeding to IVF for those dealing with unexplained infertility or age related infertility since every little boost can help. IUI is also much less intense than IVF since you don't have to use the injectible drugs, go through egg retrieval, etc.

However, you have much better chances of getting pregnant with IVF than IUI. The drawbacks are the cost and the invasiveness of the procedure. If your OH truly gets squeamish about IVF, you might want to ask about clomid and IUI since these are much less intense and many women get pregnant using them.

 

[fitzy79]

I am surprised they're not bothering to do the lap and dye or any of that mallarky. All I've had done (hah!) is a range of blood tests, an internal swab, an internal and external scan. OH has had 2 SAs (still waiting for results on the second one, but the first came back fine). Seems a little bit like jumping the gun to go straight for IVF; what do you girls think? Should I contemplate asking for some other investigations? If so, what?

There's no way I'd be happy doing an IVF cycle without having had a Lap&Dye to check the condition of uterus and tubes for things like endo, fibroids, adhesions and any abnormalities. At the very least you should have a hycosy where tubes are flushed to ensure they are clear. No point in going through a cycle if the basic structures aren't healthy. I had both a lap/dye and a hysteroscopy which is used to check the inside of the uterus.

 

[Sizzles]

Thanks for the suggestion Fitzy. I think some of the conditions you listed could be picked up by the scans they did, but I know not all of them can. I'll mention it to them and see what they say. Only 10 days until my appointment - eek!

 

[Sizzles]

Acu tomorrow; must remember to go (my appointment is at 5.15 and I was working at school until nearly 6 today - I could fully see me forgetting tomorrow and carrying on working!) This is my first appointment whilst being back at school.
Although I've never thought myself particularly sparse in the ewcm area, this month I've had an abundance, which is good! However, I think ov is/was today as I had bad ov pains last night, moving into a dull vague ache this morning but nothing now, yet I still have ewcm. Will be jumping OH shortly! Only cd12. when acu lady was aiming for cd14, so of course now I'm worrying slightly that my lining won't be as built up etc. as it should be.
A week tomorrow until my FS appointment...

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles, I have my acu appointment today too. That is great that you have so much EWCM. I'm always afraid that I don't have enough.

I am CD2 and I think I have regressed. My period has had a few small clots in it and a lot more mucus. The blood was still bright red at least. I wonder what that means. Also, the bleeding wasn't nearly as heavy as last month. I hope I am still moving in the right direction.

 

[Sizzles]

CD13. ov'ed yesterday, 1dpo...

Session 7

Was running late as it's my first appointment where I've had to make a mad dash after work, and as predicted, got tied up with stuff and drove like a mad woman to get there! Luckily, acu lady was also running late, so I had time for a wee when I arrived. phew!

She didn't mess with pre-acu chat (presumably because she was running 15 mins late - I'd arrived 10 mins late) but did look at my tongue, which she said looked healthier, and checked my pulses.

She told me she was invigorating (I think!) today. I had a needle in the top of my scalp and one between my eyebrows (first time I've had that). I had one in my ear, but usually I think she puts them exclusively in my right ear and this time she used my left. then I had them in my wrists, 4 in my tummy, 1 in each leg, mid-calf, inside and 1 each leg, inside a bit lower down. I think that was all; I certainly got the impression of having fewer needles this time.
She burnt moxa on the tummy and higher leg needles, like she'd done last time. I enjoyed watching the smoke swirling from my body and used it to help a sort of meditation, whereby I imagined my wishes and dreams for a baby travelling up in the smoke and out of the open window to a higher being who could sort it for me. Daft I know, but quite therapeutic and soothing. Once the moxa had gone out and the smoke had ceased, I just lay there quite calmly thinking, but not really meditating any more.

Towards the end of the session my tummy needles were beginning to hurt a bit. It wasn't the same as the hurt the other time and I can't really describe it. However, I don't know if it was just coincidence, but as I drove home I developed a really bad tummy ache. It wasn't like cramping or anything, just a proper tummy ache which made me feel a bit sicky. Any way, tmi, but I paid a trip to the loo when I got home and 'expelled some air' and felt a lot better for it. I now have a heat pad on my tummy.

She seemed very pleased with my pulses after treatment and said it was a very good response to treatment.

Annoyingly, in a way, I can't go now until next Friday, due to work and stuff. I tried to book for the following Friday to continue the 'every week' sessions, but she only works the morning and it was fully booked, so I've booked for the Tuesday after again. So basically, I have 10 days between appointments for the next couple of sessions. Still, I guess it'll save me £40 on a treatment.

Last night I had a 'disappointment' with my husband. As I say, it was ov day, so we dtd when we went to bed, but unfortunately he wasn't able to see it through, so I went to sleep grumpy! When I asked why (trying not to sound mean and demanding!) he said it was because he was tired. Ah well, I guess if I did ov yesterday (I think it was in the morning) we had the night before's which was quite close to ov.

Cali, how was your session today? Sorry to hear you think you're going backwards; I'm sure it's like most things and you have good days/months and bad ones. Fingers crossed there's nothing to be read into it.

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles, "invigorating" is a good word for how acu feels right after O. I can always feel the blood rushing there afterward. I know that was frustrating not being able to "finish" right before O. I wouldn't want to make my dh feel bad either, but grrr, I wouldn't be able to help but feel like a chance for a BFP had gotten away. Hopefully it will still work out this month. It sounds like you have made wonderful progress.

My session went ok. It has become very routine though. She didn't seem as concerned as I thought she'd be about the clots and mucus. She asked a whole bunch of questions, and at the end said I need to hurry up and clean up my diet. I have slid back into bad eating habits and am having a hard time turning it around. I only got a few needles in this time in the usual places this time and had no new sensations.

I had a pretty unsettling feeling the whole time that though that my acu has either given up on me, or has done everything she knows to do and there's nothing left to be done. She asked me if I had fibroids, and I told her that I have known that I have a small one, but that it has not gotten any bigger in the years that I've known about it. She then went through a series of question about my diet, pain, etc. It really seemed like she was reaching.

She asked me if I had been to a doctor yet, and I told her I was scheduled to go to a FS in October. I'm glad that I had already had that scheduled, because otherwise I think I would have been freaked out thinking there must be something really wrong with me--like blocked tubes or something, that the acupuncture can't fix.

On one hand, I'm glad that it seems my body is pretty much in balance, but on the other hand, I'm terrified because I haven't gotten a bfp yet. My rational mind says that I'm older and that it is going to take me more time, but I can't help but to panic a little. October can't come fast enough.

In the meantime, I'm wondering if I should even bother with acu anymore until I go to the FS. Or whether I should find another one. I might be sensitive, but I'm starting to feel like my acu is out of ideas and has lost confidence in my chances.

 

[fitzy79]

Cali, I wouldn't hesitate in looming for another acu if you feel that current one isn't meeting your needs. Like everything, there are good and bad practitioners out there. I tried 2 others before settling on Dr Wu. Was the lady you are attending recommended or does she specialise in fertility??

 

[CaliDreaming]

Fitzy, my acu does specialize in fertility. She is personable and seems competent, but she only got her license in 2010.

I didn't realize that you had tried two other acus before Dr. Wu! I feel a little bit better about shopping around now then. I hate to leave my current acu, but she is just not making me feel confident that she is helping me. She seems confused about what she needs to be doing with me now. Maybe a fresh set of eyes would be good at this point. I think I'll go back to her one more time and then look for someone with more experience.

 

[TurboTurtle80]

Cali, I think reaching might be a good thing. I've not had a normal doctor "reach" for anything more than a pen and prescription pad. My acu'ist is fantastic and she asks me all the same questions. Acupuncturists aren't mind readers, they are traditional doctors. They dig deep for the underlying cause of your illness instead of treating the symptoms as an every day doctor would. US doctors are a joke and we Americans don't have a clue what its like to have a medical professional ask us these things. Your appointment sounds a ton like my last 15 or so. Keep in mind that acu is a method of balancing your ENTIRE body, not just your fertility issues. My acu asks me all the time if I've been to the doctor. I think yours is asking you for some lab panels without being up front. Its kind of a cheating way to see what's going on in your body and I think its fair and beneficial for you to provide your acu with all the info she needs. Let her treat your whole body at the root cause, not just the side effect.

Lol. Forgive me if I sound harsh. I don't mean to. I'm just working on my biology paper and I'm so sick of a food industry that cares nothing about our health and a health industry that cares nothing about our food. Our bodies are amazing compositions of chemistry, physics, and biology. Its frustrating that the medical industry has us believing there's a "magic pill" when there's not. If we give our body what it needs, it'll do exactly what its supposed to. It really is very simple if we think about it.

I'd also take her very seriously on the diet recommendation. I think I fought that for at least 6 months and now that I'm taking it seriously, I'm getting my cycles back. Go figure, right? Stay away from milk, soy and corn - even American standard "Organic". Drink lots of water. Stay as close to organic (foreign grown) as you possibly can. American standards of Organic are like 30% of what other country standards are. For example, American standard for organic milk means the cow must graze freely only 30% of the time. The other 70% of the time they are "grain" fed and don't even get me started on what's allowed as "grain". yuck!

 

[CaliDreaming]

I'm pretty confused about what my prospects are and what I should be doing right now, but the more I think about it, the more I think I need to make a switch.

TurboTurtle, I really want to believe my acu has been digging deeper, but I think my problem with her is deeper than her methods or plan of attack. My main gripe with her is that the past few sessions, I have been leaving that room feeling worse about myself and my chances than when I entered.

I think we may just be incompatible, because I do believe she knows what she's doing, but the problem is I have no idea what she's doing. From the beginning, I've really felt dissatisfied with her communication. I've been going to her for four months, and I have no idea if I'm where she thinks I need to be, or if I've made any improvements in the diagnosis she gave me in the beginning. I have no idea if she has any ideas about what's going on, or if she's exploring new ideas. It feels like pulling teeth to get any info out of her. I feel like I am sharing so much about my condition, and my ideas, and I don't get any response. Like today, I told her I had started back taking ACV to absorb more nutrients, and then I told her about all of the supplements I was taking and she said....nothing about it except that wheatgrass tablets are cheaper than the real thing in health food stores. It just seems to me she should be sharing more of her opinions and theories with me.

So I think I'm going to shop around for another acu who will communicate more with me and at least make me feel optimistic. In the beginning, I think it was fine for me just to have someone who was technically competent, but now I think I need one who has a certain "bedside manner" too.

 

[TurboTurtle80]

I completely understand what you're saying. My only recommendation would be to first have an open discussion w her about the way you're feeling. Don't hold back just out of respect. Your feelings could be entirely displaced based on the situation and there's probably something she can do about the depression. I'm not saying you have to stay w her, my point is just that I think it's common what you're going thru and it will be costly to bounce around. Keep in mind the very first session w all acupuncturists is like $150-$200. I know you've been agonizing over this for a while, but I think there's more going on aside from the doctor than you may be being honest to yourself about. This is one of those difficult conversations even I'd try to avoid, but you gotta do it in order to completely walk away knowing you did your best.

 

[CaliDreaming]

I guess I could tell my acu my concerns by email. I'm thinking I will tell her that I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to continue acu while I'm waiting to see the FS since I may need the money for that. Then that would give her an opportunity to either cut me loose or explain why her treatment would still be beneficial for me.

 

[TurboTurtle80]

You're a lot like me Cali. I choose to have most of my difficult conversations by email as well. Its definitely a growing thing and you have to be assertive in your own care. Plus I really think the nutrition factor plays a major role in how acu'ists will treat your condition. They have to know that part is out of the way before they can proceed. Speaking from experience, I started to get new needles in different places once she could see my liver was clear of toxicity. I'm just trying to intervene and help you not jump from doc to doc. I can completely understand not liking her personally and her way of communicating with you, but maybe she doesn't know how you're feeling and has no clue that its a stressor for you. You have the opportunity to help her grow and also to help yourself grow. I find it hard to think that any acu goes thru all that training and wants to make you feel bad. Its a completely different field and nothing like the world of western medicine. If it were a western doc I'd say frigg that doc and find a new one, but tcm generally has a different philosophy about the soul and human body all being one. I just bet if you talk to her about it, she'll get a better idea of what to change. My gut tells me there's something else going on in your heart and the easiest thing to do is trash all you've been doing and go a different route. Success is just perseverance. So keep going.

 

[CaliDreaming]

TurboTurtle, That's another thing that concerns me too. My acu has never really given me any dietary recommendations. She went through a phase where she was convinced I was eating a lot of dairy and told me to limit it, and I told her over and over that I rarely eat dairy. Then yesterday she told me that I need to focus on "improving my diet" without telling me anything to stay away from and avoid. I am just beyond frustrated.

I really wish I had it in me to salvage this relationship, but at this point I am just tired and I think I would resent having to make a whole bunch of changes just to get her to be more responsive to me when I'm the one that has to pony up the cash every week. I've already asked her if I was making progress and I've told her how sad and depressed I've been lately. I have been close to tears at some sessions so it kinda disturbs me that I would have to spell this all out for her. I don't think she is doing this intentionally, but I just think it is just how she practices.

It might be that she does not know how I'm feeling but I really think it is part of duty to ask that and find out what is going on with me. I feel like I am spending a whole bunch of my energy just getting her to do things that I shouldn't have to tell her she should be doing.

I would love her as a masseuse, because there it's all about the technique and relaxing environment, but as an acupuncturist I just don't see how this is going to work if there is not good communication.

 

[Sizzles]

Have been feeling very emotional today and yesterday, but I'm only 2dpo today, so way too early for symptoms! Crazy! Usually I get like this a few days before af arrives - always coinciding with the start of spotting, so more to do with that and what it signals than hormones playing havoc. I do hope I don't feel like this for the next 2 weeks!