Dealing with azoospermia?

[Stinas]

mj - Im soo sorry you didnt get full answers. You know what...if the donor route is the way you have to go, do it. Just as long as Simon is healthy...thats all that matters!! I always feel like adopted babies end up looking like the parents anyways....im sure donor will look more like you guys.

snd - I would do it behind his back....he will get over it. Its not like your donating your kidney behind his back lol and the dream...lol...too funny!....but that would be really nice for us to all get together! How much fun would that be!!!

tigerlily1975 - YES!!!!!!!!! It makes me super mad....this one girl who has 2 boys already...shockingly all same father....just had her 3rd boy....which is all fine and dandy except for the fact that all her post are nasty posts about the father and how hes no good and blah blah blah....like "you will pay for this" "all you need is mommy" "hes no good"....its like really? People like this can have multiple babies and dh and I cant have one? I just dont get it. Life works in mysterious ways.

 

[Soili]

Hey guys! We got a copy of SA results yesterday and I wonder if any of you would have something to say about it... In regards whether it's possible at all for us to still try ICSI.

So confirming that the count was fine. 49mil per ml. Absolute zero motility. Zero morphology too, with 78% abnormality of head and 90% of tail (the neck and cito are all fine). I guess in the samples they took to examine, all 100% fell in either head or tail or both. Not to say that there ain't some in the whole 70-something million that would be considered normal, but obviously they didn't look through the whole thing. While the head % seems somewhat within the normal range, the % for tail abnormality is really high. pH is normal, 7.7. And they didn't find any white blood cells, so probably not infection either. There was no sperm in earlier stages of development found either, I'm guessing it's good thing?

The thing I was most unsure about is if they tested for vitality and they did. 43% are vital (according to staining test, I presume). They couldn't do the HOS test, because a lot of them had short or curled tail.

Seems pretty obvious to me that the reason why they don't wanna swim is because there's something wrong with the structure of the tails, since 90% of them are wrong shape, yet at least half are perfectly vital. My biggest guess for diagnosis at the moment is "immotile ciliary syndrome", but they'd have to look at the tails closely to confirm.

My question is though... How resistant fertility clinics are to using immotile and perhaps also not morphologically perfect (in tail area) sperm for ICSI, but that is vital? I found studies saying that it's very much possible. For once, morphology doesn't correlate to any chromosome abnormalities (though I'm guessing they'll be testing for that too, the kariotype test?). And second, the tail is only needed to get the sperm to the egg and they crash it before injecting into the egg anyway. It's a state clinic, if it matters.

I'd really like it for us to try ICSI first, even if they'd say it's low chances. Donor sperm would be easier of course, and we'll consider DIUI if ICSI fails. But my biggest fear at the moment that they wouldn't even let us try, under assumption that the probability is too low...

And yeah, all we originally got from the doctor was - count is ok, but zero motility and zero morphology, probably because of radiotherapy. Well, if it turns out that my diagnosis is right, then radiotherapy had nothing to do with it. And if she knew how to read the results properly, she wouldn't have jumped the guns either.

Oh and another thing... the testicular biopsy thing. According to my research, the sperm found there wouldn't be motile anyway? So doesn't seem like it makes any sense doing it. But the doctor said that's what they'll do looking for "better" sperm. Like I said though, she clearly didn't know much about it.

 

[tigerlily1975]

mj - Im soo sorry you didnt get full answers. You know what...if the donor route is the way you have to go, do it. Just as long as Simon is healthy...thats all that matters!! I always feel like adopted babies end up looking like the parents anyways....im sure donor will look more like you guys.

snd - I would do it behind his back....he will get over it. Its not like your donating your kidney behind his back lol and the dream...lol...too funny!....but that would be really nice for us to all get together! How much fun would that be!!!

tigerlily1975 - YES!!!!!!!!! It makes me super mad....this one girl who has 2 boys already...shockingly all same father....just had her 3rd boy....which is all fine and dandy except for the fact that all her post are nasty posts about the father and how hes no good and blah blah blah....like "you will pay for this" "all you need is mommy" "hes no good"....its like really? People like this can have multiple babies and dh and I cant have one? I just dont get it. Life works in mysterious ways.

It's completely and utterly annoying and upsetting! My oldest friend's sister got pregnant on a one night stand - she wasn't even sure who the dad was at first!! She gave birth to a gorgeous baby boy and the dad wants absolutely nothing to do with him, he's not supporting them or anything. She won't go through the system to get the financial support from him as she wants another child with him because she doesn't want to be "one of those women with children by different dads", even though he won't even be seen in public with her until she's lost weight!! Yep, real charmer! Like yourself, I just don't get it!!

I got quite upset as a lovely couple I know who have only been married 8 months announced they're expecting. I know she was partying over Christmas and New Year and then went skiing in February, so she must've fallen pregnant very quickly as she's 2-3 months along. You just keep asking yourself; why is it so easy for everyone else? Why can't we just have sex to create a baby?

I'm sorry for the mini-whinge, I'm just angry (with the World?!) this week.. the meditation is obviously not working!

Much love and to all,

C xx

 

[snd80]

Morning all. Hope everyone is well.

I fully started during the night. But suprisingly I am ok today. It is like I have already grieved this past week cause I just knew it was coming. But on to the next cycle and learn from the first.

I have decided to cash in my vacation time to fund the next round. Hubby didn't need all of his pay check this week and has offered me the leftover to put towards the next round too, so we are going to press forward, which should be June 1st. We had a talk last night and he told me he couldn't take my "bad attitude" anymore, and felt like I was blaming him for this cycle's failure (which I was since he has stressed me beyond belief these past two weeks over a bunch of b.s.), and he was too busy and stressed himself to coddle me over this! Really?! Like I told him, for the past year there has been no hope, and now that we had a REAL chance at this, the failure just plain hurts and I have every right to be upset and need coddling! But I thought long and hard about it, and realized that I have only stressed myself out and had put my life on hold for the past 2 weeks and did nothing but worry the whole time over every little thing. So not this time! This time will be different. You live and learn, don't you?!

Dr. just called and said we were going to do all the same except for they are going to give me vaginal progesterone cream this time for the short luteal phase. At least they are addressing it ahead of time!!!!

Sun- Hope all is going well so far!!!!

to everyone else and sorry for the long rant.

 

[tigerlily1975]

I'm so very, very sorry SND When you mentioned that the spotting had stopped, I was really hoping so hard that this was the one and it was just from implanting. That's great news that you're pushing on, June 1st is not far off at all (I know, as I turn 37 - Eeek!! - on the 2nd) and it sounds like your Dr is on the ball. As you rightly say, you can learn from this cycle and get it right for hopefully the one that does the trick.

In the mean-time, please take care and we're here if you need us

C xx

 

[Deb111]

Snd - so sorry hun, but glad you have a plan xx

Soili - my knowledge on the biopsies is a bit rusty now, but from what I remember, motile sperm can be found in the biopsy, as I know we had at least 1 out of our initial 3, but I'm sure it's not unusual for them not to be motile as they are not fully developed.

As for using them in ICSI - I don't see why it would be a problem as you say, the tails etc are not important in ICSI - the sperm itself just carries the genetic 'payload' and once it is injected the rest becomes pretty redundant. Do you have to pay for your treatment? If you do, I don't see how they can refuse giving it a go if that's what you want. If you don't have to pay, I guess probability and statistics might play a part. The only reason I can think for not giving it a go is if the deformity in the sperm is as a result of another issue i.e. something genetic. Sorry for being a bit vague

 

[Soili]

Deb, we're not paying for the treatments, and that's exactly why I worry. There's a good chance they wouldn't wanna ruin the "success rate statistics". We have the right for 3 IVF rounds, but they might refuse on the basis that there's just no good sperm to use. We can't afford IVF at our own expense, but would seem weird not giving it a try because of financial reasons. Yet again, if we decide to save for it, I won't be getting any younger and we'll have lower success rates anyway. It's kinda looped logic.

We're rather against biopsy at the moment, because it appears that the reason they don't swim is because the tails are structured in the way that it makes it impossible to begin with. Hens, I don't believe they'll find anything different in biopsy. Of course, if they say they'll do ICSI in we agree on biopsy, than it'll be a different story.

The thing is, if it IS "immotile ciliary syndrome", then there's nothing can be done to get them to swim. Vitamins might improve vitality and head morphology, but the tails will stay the same as it's a genetic factor affecting them.

 

[Stinas]

tigerlily1975 - Its ok to have poor me days. I have them alllll the time! I have realized that most people that get everything handed to them or just get it the easy way is usually miserable with their life in general and either want more or a different life. I love my life, my husband and my family....I wouldnt have it any other way....azoo is the biggest bump we could have ever imagined, but I would rather go through things the hard way than to be miserable. Dont get me wrong....azoo makes you kind of miserable at times, but in the end I feel like it has brought DH and I to such a closer more intimate place in our relationship. We were always close, but this is just way different....and for that I am thankful.....as weird as it sounds.

snd - Im sorry AF has arrived. Its good you prepared yourself earlier. I hope this cycle is your cycle! I agree....you do learn from your mistakes!

 

[CanadianMaple]

snd80- I'm so sorry that AF arrived. I hope this cycle is it!

tigerlily1975- I find it so frustrating how people can get pregnant so easily and not even understand what a blessing it is. I have a 4 year old and his father is a deadbeat. He hasn't seen Jack since last July and the last time he spoke to him was in October, only because I forced it. My husband has azoo, is raising another man's baby and would do anything for Jack, yet he will never be able to adopt Jack or have his own naturally. It makes me so angry.

mj- I'm so sorry things have been so rough. It's so much to process. The donor route is a good option but it does take awhile until you feel totally comfortable with it. We're still struggling with that as an option right now.

DH's appointment is in 13 hours. I am so nervous, I feel like I could be sick. I wished I had wrote out my questions before now, I can't concentrate to even think of any. 6 months of waiting and I feel like I'm numb all over again. I don't get it. What do I need to ask? Low T treatment? Biopsy? ICSI chances? Will the freeze anything if they do the biopsy? Then it's a total blank.

I'm sorry I have missed a lot of you in my personals. I'll update tomorrow and will try to catch up soon. We're going to be on our first camping trip of the year for the long weekend this weekend. We bought a new trailer last week and can't wait to get a break and use it.

 

[SunUp]

SND- big hugs! you have a great attitude and are an amazingly strong person!

CM - good luck! I am hoping for the best for you!

 

[rdleela]

Dr. just called and said we were going to do all the same except for they are going to give me vaginal progesterone cream this time for the short luteal phase. At least they are addressing it ahead of time!!!!

Hi, snd, first so sorry AF got you, and I totally "get" how you're ok right now! I would do my grieving before I got AF, as well!

As for the progesterone, I would highly recommend that you ask for pills or suppositories instead. From everything I've read, the cream is by far not enough to help a short luteal phase. I have a 9 day luteal phase (I just wrote a post a few pages ago on this) and I used Prometrium pills as suppositories (yup, stuck them up there!) twice a day, starting 3dpo (confirmed o) till 14dpo, no spotting, no period!!! It goes right to the place it's needed when used as a suppositories...Anyways, I would see if they'll give you those instead of the cream, and if you have any questions at all, let me know! I am TOTALLY using it whenever I get to TTC again!

I have been following, just not posting! Really, really wishing every one of you girls the very best, no matter what stage you're at!!!

AFM, still waiting for a stupid transrectal u/s appt...good news is that the request to the hospital is complete and done, just waiting for the hospital to get back to use with the date/time.

 

[raelynn]

SND - So sorry AF got you! I'm glad that you did your grieving ahead of time though so you can just get ready to move forward with the next round. We're all such planners and ahead thinkers Guess this is preparing us for motherhood! I really hope this next cycle is it for you!

CM - Wishing you lots of luck, hope you get some good news and some info to help you sort an action plan out!

 

[wibble wobble]

Snd sorry AF got you. Hope the next cycle is the one xx

 

[CanadianMaple]

Not good news.

$1500 for a needle and a 20% chance
$4000 for open surgery. 45% chance.

He wasn't interested in treating him with clomid to boost his T.
He said he would give him T if he doesn't want to do that until we are done with fertility stuff.

Those percentages are just for sperm. Ivf also only has a 50/50 chance.

I'm so frustrated that this all comes down to money. So frustrated he won't treat the low T with something. He says that rarely works.

 

[snd80]

Dr. just called and said we were going to do all the same except for they are going to give me vaginal progesterone cream this time for the short luteal phase. At least they are addressing it ahead of time!!!!

Hi, snd, first so sorry AF got you, and I totally "get" how you're ok right now! I would do my grieving before I got AF, as well!

As for the progesterone, I would highly recommend that you ask for pills or suppositories instead. From everything I've read, the cream is by far not enough to help a short luteal phase. I have a 9 day luteal phase (I just wrote a post a few pages ago on this) and I used Prometrium pills as suppositories (yup, stuck them up there!) twice a day, starting 3dpo (confirmed o) till 14dpo, no spotting, no period!!! It goes right to the place it's needed when used as a suppositories...Anyways, I would see if they'll give you those instead of the cream, and if you have any questions at all, let me know! I am TOTALLY using it whenever I get to TTC again!

I have been following, just not posting! Really, really wishing every one of you girls the very best, no matter what stage you're at!!!

AFM, still waiting for a stupid transrectal u/s appt...good news is that the request to the hospital is complete and done, just waiting for the hospital to get back to use with the date/time.

From what I've gathered, it will be Endometrin (hopefully anyway), a pill type thing that you use as a suppositority, but it comes prefilled in a applicator, and expensive as shit!!!! We're talking almost $200 for a 2 week supply! But whatever! I just wanna get pg this time!!! And it would cost me more in the long run to use my final vial for the last try; not including the dr. cost and travel expenses/time off work either! So I would GLADLY pay $1000 for it just to get it right this time! LOL! Thank you for your reply!!!! I will make sure it is that instead of a "cream" cream.

Hopefully they will get you guys sorted out soon so you can get back to TTC! We're all cheering for you!

 

[snd80]

Oh Becks!!!! Thoughts and prayers are with you guys!

It would be SO nice if everywhere was like the UK, where they actually help ppl with infertility treatments!!!!

 

[raelynn]

CM - Sorry for your news but don't lose hope! We were given the exact same percentages and went with the lower option because of money. We went in saying a 25% higher chance of zero sperm is still zero so we didn't want to spend the money on the chance that nothing would be found. We were very surprised when they actually found sperm in some of the samples so there is always a chance! We were tormented by having to make such a big decision based on cost alone but that was the situation. It turns out, they coded the procedure for testicular failure so our insurance actually paid for most of it.

 

[Deb111]

It would be SO nice if everywhere was like the UK, where they actually help ppl with infertility treatments!!!!

Unfortunately you'd be pushing your luck to get NHS treatment with an azoo diagnosis as they're not prepared to deal with small numbers, or, in our experience, doing a synchronised cycle. They wrote us off

 

[Deb111]

Not good news.

$1500 for a needle and a 20% chance
$4000 for open surgery. 45% chance.

He wasn't interested in treating him with clomid to boost his T.
He said he would give him T if he doesn't want to do that until we are done with fertility stuff.

Those percentages are just for sperm. Ivf also only has a 50/50 chance.

I'm so frustrated that this all comes down to money. So frustrated he won't treat the low T with something. He says that rarely works.

So sorry Becky What is his justification for not giving your dh clomid or something similar? 'Rarely' means it sometimes works and this is your chances of having a baby he's messing with and who's to say that your dh wouldn't be one of the 'rare' ones?? We certainly were! It's ridiculous to not even try it and it's hardly like it's expensive treatment. One of Terry's meds was £9 for 3 months supply!!! I really would push him on the issue if you can or could you get a second opinion? Have you ever had a phone consultation with Dr Turek? I'd be interested in his opinion.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm so frustrated for you!

 

[CanadianMaple]

He's our only option. At one point, it sounded like he would try the clomid if we wanted, but then went back on it. If he's willing to take $1500 from us for a procedure that has a 20% success rate, it burns my butt to think he won't try that. I feel like he totally dashed any hope I had. What if he tried the clomid and started producing some sperm. He said it was only good for people who had ogliospermia (or however you say it.)

I feel like the day I did when we were diagnosed. I waited 6 months to find out everything I read about months ago. Only some things are more advanced than what he will consider. UGH!