Last month of trying before CIO, some questions....

[Wishing_well]

I guess I must have harmed my baby by helping her learn how to self settle then. Bad mummy.

See, it's stupid comments like this that annoy me.
My daughter is learning to self settle but it doesn't involve crying. And no one said it makes you a bad mum.
Jeez!

 

[Noelle610]

What I don't understand is, why not put yourself in your babies place. You're crying (for whatever reason) and your only communicative tool is being ignored completely. So what if you just want a cuddle or to know that mums still there etc.
Yeah I know stress and lack of sleep is bad for mums too (speaking from experience as Quinn wakes every hour!) but we know better. Babies don't know that everything is fine and how it was when they went to sleep. I think biology has a lot to answer for and society needs to stop forcing babies to go against that.

If people want to use CIO then fine but i hate it when they assume that all information about how it harms and effects babies whether now or in the future, is made up or ridiculous.

I guess I just don't see that logic. I don't see it as ignoring - I see it as teaching. The parent is teaching their baby to sleep and teaching them self-soothing skills. There are many times in our lives we will have to tell our children they can't have what they want. Should I put myself in my child's shoes when I tell her she can't touch a hot stove? Or have a cookie at 9am? Or take the car out before she has her driver's license?

I do agree that some night waking is normal. I think we are too quick to try and get our babies to STTN. I don't think sleep training is appropriate for all babies nor do I think it's a one-size-fits-all type deal. But I think a severe lack of sleep is dangerous for children and can make them irritable, fussy and even ill. When a mom and baby aren't coping, I think sleep training is actual the kind answer.

I also don't think, biologically sleeping, we can assert that letting a baby cry temporarily is unnatural. For much of history, families have been quite large. Mom has to tend to the need that's most pressing and that often meant baby had to wait. I don't think they were doing intentional sleep training, but I think allowing a baby an opportunity to self-settle probably didn't hurt. If you think about nature, there's a lot of "tough love" too.

 

[Noelle610]

And yes sometimes we do have to do "tough" things but I feel it's unfair to expect a baby to just accept it. He doesn't know it's best for him.

I don't know, I think sometimes they have to accept things they don't like. My daughter hates putting clothes on, having a poopy diaper changed and sometimes her bath. Doesn't mean these things aren't necessary. We're mothers and sometimes we have to do what is in a child's best interest, even if they don't like it.

I am a pretty big advocate for responding to a child's needs immediately, but I think there has to be a balance of meeting an emotional need and a need to get solid, quality, restorative sleep. It's essential for both mental and phsyical health. Think about how you feel when you don't sleep. You feel like crap. You're irritable, you ache and you can't focus. It's not crazy to imagine a baby feels the same if they're waking excessively.

I'm very open to have a conversation about this and I don't think it has to be nasty

 

[Noelle610]

This just came up in my news feed and I think it's really interesting. Totally an opinion and un-scientific, but here it is:

https://www.sleeplady.com/parenting/attachment-parenting-and-baby-sleep-training-can-i-have-it-all/

Attachment Parenting and Baby Sleep Training: Can I have it all?

I believe that you can strike a balance. You don’t have to be a prefect parent to have a well-adjusted, happy child. Attachment is a balance between security and support, confidence and freedom. It’s all about allowing our babies to learn how to deal with their emotions (including anger, frustration, and excitement) constructively. This includes helping your baby learn to self-regulate behaviors, for example, sleep. Unfortunately, these are not things that that we can do for them, but we can teach them how to do it themselves in a safe, loving environment.

In fact, many families that I work with respond to a coaching analogy. You wouldn’t expect a coach to get out on the field and play for his team, and likewise, as parents, we cannot expect our children to learn how to self-regulate without helping them learn the steps to do so. This does not mean that parents should sit and watch, rather, attached parents are involved and available, allowing their child to learn and grow and stepping in when they need assistance.

Just like a coach, you can give your child the tools, and help him learn to use them, but you can’t do it for him. This especially applies to sleep. Children need to be taught to put themselves to sleep in order to have lifelong healthy sleep habits. Teaching oneself to fall asleep is a necessary life skill, and if your baby can only fall asleep with assistance (what I commonly call a ‘sleep crutch’), then they have learned that “I can’t fall asleep unless mommy rocks me” or “I cannot go back to sleep because mommy hasn’t nursed me enough.” This ends up causing exhaustion, frustration (for mom), and bad sleep habits (for baby).

 

[staralfur]

Noelle, that's a good point about the large families! I was just speaking to my neighbor the other day who was saying her newborn is the best sleeper yet, because she has a 4 year old and a 2 year old as well, and so her newborn kind of has to be indepedent to some extent because she's got other kids to attend to as well.

 

[Wishing_well]

Have you ever actually stopped to think that a baby will actually do it in their own time?!

You don't force them to crawl, walk or talk. Encourage maybe. But they all do it when they are ready.

You don't hear of adults waking every 2 hours and not being able to go back to sleep without a drink, or a story. They all learn to do it eventually.


So much for not wanting a debate!

 

[staralfur]

I think it's a bit unrealistic to comment on an obviously controversial topic without expecting a debate. I'm not sure why a debate is such a bad thing, either... quite often it gives people an opportunity to learn something they may not have come across on their own.

 

[Twister]

Most babies will yes, but when your baby is so tired and grumpy all the time because they're not getting the sleep they need sometimes its necessary to do something about it. There's nothing wrong with encouraging a baby to self sooth from an appropriate age, just like there's nothing wrong with waiting it out.

 

[Noelle610]

Noelle, that's a good point about the large families! I was just speaking to my neighbor the other day who was saying her newborn is the best sleeper yet, because she has a 4 year old and a 2 year old as well, and so her newborn kind of has to be indepedent to some extent because she's got other kids to attend to as well.

That's one of my theories on why subsequent kids are usually better sleepers!

Have you ever actually stopped to think that a baby will actually do it in their own time?!

You don't force them to crawl, walk or talk. Encourage maybe. But they all do it when they are ready.

You don't hear of adults waking every 2 hours and not being able to go back to sleep without a drink, or a story. They all learn to do it eventually.


So much for not wanting a debate!

Maybe they'll do it in their own time. "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" theororizes that babies with unhealthy sleep habits become older kids and adults with unhealthy sleep habits.

You don't force your kids to crawl, walk or talk but you work with them on it. As the aforementioned articles says, you coach them through it. I repeat words to Charlie so that she can learn them. I encourage her to walk to me and hold my hands out for her, praising her when she takes steps. I think it's fine to coach your child into good sleep habits.

 

[Wishing_well]

I think it's a bit unrealistic to comment on an obviously controversial topic without expecting a debate. I'm not sure why a debate is such a bad thing, either... quite often it gives people an opportunity to learn something they may not have come across on their own.

Of course debates are usually a good thing but most of the time, on here, it gets out of hand and people take things personally.
I honestly commented to give advice (which I haven't actually edited my first post with) but that single comment was picked up and this has started.

And Noelle, I completely get what you're saying about coaching them, and agree, but I don't see how crying it out is coaching. It's forcing it upon the child.

 

[Twister]

You stated something was proven without giving a reliable source, of course people were going to pull you up on it, especially as its such a sensitive topic to begin with lol.

 

[Wishing_well]

I didn't say proven. I said shown - completely different.

 

[Randianne]

I would still very much like to see the study where it was shown.

 

[Twister]

In the context you used it in on your first post, most people would assume 'shown' and 'proven' to mean essentially the same thing

 

[AmyS]

Have you ever actually stopped to think that a baby will actually do it in their own time?!

You don't force them to crawl, walk or talk. Encourage maybe. But they all do it when they are ready.

You don't hear of adults waking every 2 hours and not being able to go back to sleep without a drink, or a story. They all learn to do it eventually.


So much for not wanting a debate!

I agree with this, only because I'm using myself as an example. My mom would never let me cry AT ALL, and I learned how to sleep awesomely all on my own. That being said, I also have no problem with CIO or CC, because I think that some babies do need help when there are serious sleep problems. I was thinking about it with my LO, but then realized that her sleep problems aren't really anything that I can't help her with in a gentle and gradual manner. If her sleep was causing her illness, or other major sleep deprivation issues, I'd probably have gone that route a couple of weeks ago.

Also, I'm not actively joining this debate...I think you all have valid points! It's worth saying that every baby and every parent is different, and we all have to end up doing what our gut says is the right thing to do.

 

[Wishing_well]

Pretty sure the op didn't want this turned into a debate,so how about we go back to giving constructive advice.

 

[Randianne]

We are answering her questions. She asked if CIO worked. Your answer made some strong claims about what has been shown and yet you refuse to back them up. We've asked for the study multiple times. OP can draw her own conclusions about that.

OP, CIO can help your baby sleep. Self-settling is a skill that they'll use their entire lives. You have been given some good resources to help you decide if it's right for your LO. I hope you get more sleep soon!

 

[Mummy Bean]

my beast is 14 month and alas still dosnt sttn. we triedCC at 11 months coz it would take 2 hrs to get him to sleep and would wake numerous times and tbh i dont think it helped. following that we tried gradual reduction over a two week period, which think helped him learn that cot time was bed time, and he learnt to fall asleep on his own. now hen he finished his bottle we lie him down with teddy n dummy and he goes to sleep all by him self. but he still wakes at night so we bring him in with us...so bot complete sucess.

i think u can only try different things and see what works for u as a family. i know at 2am i simply dont have the will power to follow through will sleep training. but maybe that my failure. wishing u the best, as lack of sleep a bitch....but Man made coffee to help us through.

 

[Millnsy]

What I don't understand is, why not put yourself in your babies place. You're crying (for whatever reason) and your only communicative tool is being ignored completely. So what if you just want a cuddle or to know that mums still there etc.
Yeah I know stress and lack of sleep is bad for mums too (speaking from experience as Quinn wakes every hour!) but we know better. Babies don't know that everything is fine and how it was when they went to sleep. I think biology has a lot to answer for and society needs to stop forcing babies to go against that.

If people want to use CIO then fine but i hate it when they assume that all information about how it harms and effects babies whether now or in the future, is made up or ridiculous.

Just to respond to one of the points in this post. The reason we resorted to crying it out was because she didn't want to be cuddled or rocked. She was so overtired and nothing I could do helped. We had to leave her torch an within 2 nights she was settling at a reasonable time an sleeping longer. Sure I could have placated her and entertained her and stopped her crying but she wouldn't have been sleeping which is what she really really needed. I think sometimes in our attempts to "respond to their needs" we are interfering with what they are trying to achieve, which is to sleep!

As I am now on my second baby, I also totally subscribe to the "all babies are different" school of thought. Wha works for one won't work for another so it's difficult to make sweeping judgements or statements about any parenting methods. I parent I. The same way with different results!

To the op, in my experience CIO does work and does teach babies to self soothe an sleep well.

 

[Gidz]

Wow...

To the original OP,

1. I think this answer is based on the needs of your baby. If he needs rocked at this time, do it. I believe they eventually grow out of this. But, keep in mind they if he wakes try the night, he probably wants rocked back to sleep but this isnt always the case.

2. I think at his age 1 bottle would still be needed. I'm sure he could go without, but I'm in the mind I'd rather feed my baby once (atleast) at night until right around 1.

3. Tbh, I'm not sure. Babies are all individuals. Might be habit or comfort.

4. Not yet for us, but I also do not expect my four month old to sttn without waking to feed. She sleeps in 2 5 hour stretches and 1 2.5 hour stretch between feeds at night. We only do CC to get her to fall asleep on own at the start of the night but not thru the night. It took two nights of crying for her to be able to self settle and she nurses back to sleep thru the night.