TTC 1st child 35+ (Please spoiler any PG news/announcements).

[missyt]

Thanks, girls it really means a lot. I had acupuncture and I do feel a little better. I told her everything and she was shocked too. She thinks the doctor is unethical too and just couldn't believe all the stuff I told her. She gave me some herbs and a book to take home to read on natural fertility. I think I need a break from doctors and medication and all that for a while.

Lava, you are the first person I thought of when I told DH that diminished ovarian reserve doesn't mean jack sh*t! I guess I was just a little mad at him for buying what that jack*ss was selling about the donor eggs. Then again, he doesn't chat with you guys every day that have real life experience and do all the research I do.

 

[lavalux]

All that "diminished ovarian reserve" means for the purposes of these fertility clinics is how likely, based on FSH & AMH numbers, the drugs they give you will be effective. Meaning how many eggs can they stimulate, manipulate into maturing at the right time, and they extrapolate a projection about the quality of the eggs from that. But those tests & numbers clearly don't always mean what they claim to mean.

I was ovulating on my own, but the Clomid caused me to release 3 eggs the cycle we got pregnant. Obviously, two were fertilized. Either both at the time of the IUI procedure or my RE told me, it is possible that one happened the next night when we came home and had regular, plain ole sex. The cool thing about my RE is that he admitted that they can only control and predict so much (how many meds to prescribe, when to trigger, how they monitor fertilization in the lab for IVF, when the transfer). The doctor can lay out the statistics (which are often skewed anyway) and lay out the options, but the "diagnoses" are just guesses.

Listening to the initial speeches about donor egg success #s vs. IUI/IVF #s (in my case for a 40 year old) threw me for a loop too. And I'm not against donor eggs or adoption at all, but I hated hearing about it from the RE and especially from my well-meaning husband who did all that research too and it made me feel like he was going to give up on us too easily. But ultimately, we picked a clinic that is so well-established that they aren't afraid to take on the "more challenging" cases. And our RE didn't have such an ego that he wouldn't let us drive the process to a certain ethical extent - within medical standards. For example, he wouldn't let us do more than 3 IUIs (even though the clinics dont report those) or transfer more than 3 eggs if we had done IVF. But he never let us feel that he was going to just give up on us without giving it his best shot (now the insurance programs are another story ... don't get me started). Our RE was honest and a bit harsher at our initial consult, but once he'd managed our expectations, he was encouraging so we didn't feel played. I recommend finding an RE like that.

I could just scream thinking about how your RE reeled you in with promises & then dumped you from the program, denying the obviously true statement about your excellent egg quality. I don't think 2 separate people lied about that. I think you responsed well in terms of quantity & especially quality. It just didn't work this time, but odds are that it would work the next time. But not with this charlatan!!! Goodbye to that heartless loser.

Take a break & regroup ... yoga/accupuncture/reading/herbs/natural TTC if you want. Then start fresh with a new clinic. But you will need to be strong b/c you want to find a.doctor that will lay out the "harsh statistics" at the beginning but then be willing to work a plan together. And you will know in your head that "diminished ovarian reserve" does not mean Shit. It's just a term of art in the fertility world. With all the medical science out there, your own body is wonderfully made!!! You can and will get pregnant and carry a healthy baby or babies to term.

Thanks for letting me ramble but I get really incensed by all the negative and discouraging labeling out there but its worse I guess when they try to blow smoke up your ass to turn a profit. They get our hard earned money ... they need to remember they are supposed to be providing a service and we aren't idiots. We are our own best advocates. Rant over. Go have some laughs with your husband now. They try but are still clueless men sometimes. Give him a big hug & we will give you some cyber ones.

 

[skye2010]

Laura very well said dear. The IVF I had in Turkey had a similar episode like yours Missy. + They put on 3 embies when it was only 2 legally. So my RE here ruled that IVF out as not being indicative of anything cause it was done by cowboys. I too get super angry when drs see the patients as fair game to turn into cash cows and research mice while taking their money. You really want a straight dr like Laura explained.

Missy don't get too disheartened if you think you will come back to it. You have to wait 2 months anyway so do your research in the mean time. Get yourself ready for the next round. Cause the quicker you get on with it the quicker you will get results.

Laura your ticker is small and cute so I just sew it ) You are exactly 1 month behind me ))

Amanda, Dr Gorgy is an x senior ARGC consultant. All the immune tests are sent to Chicago so you are talking about exactly what I had done. Mr Gorgy is a very very good dr aswell. i heard he was good at also stimmulation and transfers etc but he and Taranissi fell apart. I'm guessing over being too strong minds in the same place. Taranissi is a control freak and very passionate over his work. i'm guessing Gorgy would be similar if he is good too. So in the end there was some steam coming out of the place I heard and Gorgy left to open a clinic just down the road. Some ARGC patients do the tests with him to gain time, and some get a sneaky intralipids done there just to be on the safe side and keep it hush hush from MrT. The only reason women don't go the IVF root with Gorgy is that he doesn't have a team, an embryology lab and the staff. Where as ARGC has it all under one roof (xcept the blood work gets done in another clinic near by) Their pricing is very similar. I think intralipids might be £50 cheaper on your clinic (not sure)
ARGC Immune blood screening (Initial profile) £780.00
Follow up is either £250 or 350 I can find out. The immunology checks do make sense. They are expensive but it might make the difference. However I wouldn't suggest to do it if you will not have the IVF as well. Cause it doesn't make sense to go through all that expense and try naturally since you are not aware of what's going on along the line of fertility. Having a consultation with Gorgy is a good idea if you definitely don't wanna go to ARGC. But your IVF has to be done in a very good clinic too. And I wonder if Gorgy would do the initial stim instructions for you while you cycle back in Wales, following your progress on the phone or fax. Might be a slim chance since he wouldn't be able to control the whole process, still worth asking.
One way of keeping your costs down with ARGC is getting what you can done in Wales with your local and coming only when it's necessary. They absolutely don't mind where you get your meds, hysterescopy, blood work etc as long as you are there for the scans egg collection and transfer.
I keep stressing the importance of a good clinic cause your stimms wasn't good in the end. We still dunno what happened to all those follies???
Also ask your gp and see what he can help with. Blood work, meds, hysterescopy. Some do, you know. They could at least do your Thyroids, HIV, hepatitis, rubella tests. Which is still better than nothing. And if he could help out with drugs that would be just from heaven.

AFM I'm not stressing anymore ) I promise. The bleeding scare was driving me mad and once that's lifted I am in a great spirit again. I haven't started on the box of mince pies but I am on some serious Belgian chocolate box, panetonne cake, custard etc etc. I do look like a pumpkin truly but I don't care much. )

Sending big festive kisses to Nicky, Chris, Twinkie, Padbrat and for all of you girls.

 

[missyt]

Lava, you are right and that is exactly how I feel. I talked to DH again and he feels like he jumped the gun by looking at that donor site and was still processing what the doctor said. We thought about it and none of it made sense. 4 different people at that clinic told us the embryos were doing great during fertilization and the quality was excellent. The doctor that did the transfer told us that and the embryologist that brought the embryos in told us that too. Besides, I could tell the quack didn't have facts straight because when he said diminished ovarian reserve I asked for proof and he pulled up my sheet and said well your antral follicle count was fine your FSH was fine but your AMH and estrodial were low. Now I know for a fact that estrodial is based on how many follicles you produce and of course I could see it being lower than if I made 28follicles. I know a girl who had a failed IVF and she is 25. She had 18 eggs at collection and she has PCOS. Only 3 of hers fertilized. So am I so much worse off because more of mine actually fertilized compared to how many were collected? She was at the same clinic but different doctor. So much just doesn't make sense. This quack I was seeing also told DH there was nothing he can do to improve sperm numbers. I think we all know that is a lie. There are so many things he has said over the past year that were so stupid. Like I had a couple of broken bones in my life and he told me I need to get checked for osteoporosis. I mentioned it to my GP and she laughed. She said my broken bones were from injuries and I also don't have a history of osteoporosis in my family. The only thing this POS RE succeeded in doing was to get me paranoid. I just know deep down that my body can do this and my eggs are still good. One of the reasons I want to use my own eggs is because my family has a great medical history. There are very few health problems on both sides of my family. My grandmother is still living and will be 97 in a month. I've always taken care of myself because I knew I'd probably end up being a mother later in life. I'm not giving up on that. I just don't feel like I'm ready to give up on myself and take a gamble with some elses eggs. I feel like I'm doing the right thing by believing in myself for the future of my future child. That RE can go to hell.

Skye, I am going to go to another clinic. I'm going to call on Monday and get my medical records. Then I'm just going to take it easy for a month or so. How old were you when you got pregnant with Shirin? Can you also tell me about number of eggs collected, mature, fertilized, etc.?

 

[MommyToBeIsMe]

Morning ladies. I have to get to work but just wanted to stop in and say hi. My nose has been stopped up since I got AF but today I have to observe an autopsy so I'm thinking it's actually not a bad thing to have today!

I hope everyone has plans to relax and enjoy their weekend!

 

[missyt]

Lava, another thing I wanted to add, I asked the jerk why for a year he said we were unexplained and now we are diminished ovarian reserve? He said because sometime we have to go through an IVF cycle to get a true diagnosis. Yeah, ok. Sounds like another BS excuse.

 

[dodgercpkl]

Missy - don't listen to another thing that lying scumbag has to say. I hope hope hope that you find an amazing RE that actually has a clue and cares about the people he/she is working with. That douchebag that you have been going is just a vile person.

 

[skye2010]

Missy I was born July 73. I think we are at the same age. All my levels are at a normal level. I produced 19 eggs in my first IVf but only 3 fertilised. They did a 3r day transfer and I knew it wasn't gonna work. Same thing they told me bad quality eggs due to old age Than the second IVF I had 23 eggs 11 fertilised and had 6 at good blasto stage. We had 4 frozen.
Another woman I know in my 2nd clinic she was 41 when she got pregnant. Low AMH and had less than 10 eggs collected dunno how many fertilised but she had BFP in first go. Than at 43 she tried again. This time only 5 eggs collected. And again BFP. + She has a couple frozen as well on blasto.
Another girl had 10 eggs collected 8 fertilised all blasto. So having good quality eggs that go to fertilisation isn't directly connected to AMH. AMH does effect the number of eggs yet not necessarily the quality. The stimm process has to be really well. All eggs should be stimmulated slowly and grow to be as same size as possible. The trigger has to be done at the right day.
What bad clinics do is they just keep the amnt of drugs to more or less same level to everyone and don't adjust as much. Everyone reacts differently. Or start increasing towards the end out of panick instead of starting at a higher dose and decreasing slowly. So the growth of eggs are all at a different stage in the end. Or the trigger is given too early or late so the eggs are either already released or too small to fertilise. Basically the re loses control over the cycle. That's why going to a good re with generally high success rates is important cause it indicates that he/she knows what to do with every individual.
Sweetie do as much research as possible. Dunno where is the best place to ask in your area. UK has a government vessel that investigates and releases success rates. It's easy to compare through that web site. I wonder if there is anything similar in the US. Otherwise do you have any dr friends who you could ask and get an opinion. There is also support groups that discuss re's and tx's on the web.

Good luck xxxxx

 

[missyt]

Skye, thanks so much. What you said makes total sense. I do feel better today.

Dogder, you are right, he is a giant douchebag!

 

[lavalux]

You are a smart cookie, Missy! Just ignore everything that RE told you. Dodger said it best! Also, Skye has a lot of good advice on the IVF piece. I felt the same way you did about my eggs. I have a healthy family history and I was not ready to give up on having my own biological children without trying some treatments with my own eggs. I actually felt more drawn toward adoption that donor eggs if we needed to go that route. I'll tell you though that it is hard not to internalize those negative messages, so good for you that you are going to a new clinic and have a plan.

 

[missyt]

Lava, I feel the same way. I feel like its either both our genes or none our genes. So I live in MD and even though I'm 2 hours from Baltimore, we have Johns Hopkins here which my therapist just told me has a fertility program. I just went on their website and this is what they said about IVF success:
"Our IVF program serves a variety of patients. Due to our vast experience in treating patients who have had multiple IVF failures, we provide individualized protocols according to the patient’s response. At the Fertility Center, our doctors have a particular interest in “poor responder” patients and in patients with base-line elevation of the FSH. Many fertility centers refer those patients to donor egg programs. Our doctors consider that the last resort once we have exhausted all our efforts to assist these couples in having their own biological child."
Looks to me like I might be going there for my 2nd opinion. Yes, SGFC (where I go now) is going to get a phone call from me on Monday. I'll be collecting my medical records and moving on.

 

[lavalux]

They have the right philosophy & that commute will be worth every mile!

 

[MommyToBeIsMe]

Lava, I feel the same way. I feel like its either both our genes or none our genes. So I live in MD and even though I'm 2 hours from Baltimore, we have Johns Hopkins here which my therapist just told me has a fertility program. I just went on their website and this is what they said about IVF success:
"Our IVF program serves a variety of patients. Due to our vast experience in treating patients who have had multiple IVF failures, we provide individualized protocols according to the patient’s response. At the Fertility Center, our doctors have a particular interest in “poor responder” patients and in patients with base-line elevation of the FSH. Many fertility centers refer those patients to donor egg programs. Our doctors consider that the last resort once we have exhausted all our efforts to assist these couples in having their own biological child."
Looks to me like I might be going there for my 2nd opinion. Yes, SGFC (where I go now) is going to get a phone call from me on Monday. I'll be collecting my medical records and moving on.

Sounds like you've found an excellent place for a second opinion.

 

[skye2010]

Missy, this sounds very good however it is written on their own web site. So how much of it is true and how much of it is just to sell themselves, it's hard to know. Please try to find an objective vessel to compare clinics. Either through pregnancy or IVf threads, or other comparative web sites. Ask around. Don't jump into any clinic without checking them out. If there isn't an independent government regulator in the US, it is so easy for them to say anything on their website. I wonder if the clinics disclose their numbers to the government. There really must be a place they do that. In Turkey there isn't. That's why the clinic I've been to was brave enough put back 3 embies to me even though it was illegal for my age group. And they claimed to have 60% success rate. I was naive enough to believe it at the time. Untill I realised that 60% rate is even too much for the best clinic in the UK in my age group. So it was totally unrealistic. After my egg collection my re was pleased with collecting 19 eggs and she said "You probably have a 80% chance" It was all bulls.... Cause the next day the embryologists told me my eggs were a bad quality and they didn't peel well. Only 3 fertilised out of 19. I was devastated. Now I know the eggs were simply not mature enough and most were smaller than they should have been.

Embryologists don't know how mature an egg is from the appearance untill the fertilisation process begins and the sperm tries to enter the egg. Only than if the egg peels it's outside shell it means it is mature. Mine didn't peel mostly. I remember when they were scaning me at stimms stage they were poking and prodding the scanner and trying to measure and count all the folicles. They were all at a different location at different sizes. However in my 2nd clinic even I could see with my untrained eyes that my follicles were growing evenly. They just looked like honey combs. When the dr shifted the scanner they just appeared to be the same size. So he measured 1 or two to see where he was but he didn't count or measure the rest.

The drs decide to trigger depending on the follicle count and eastrogen levels. Eastrogen levels increase as the eggs are getting ready to be released. I think 1-2 maturing eggs can also raise your levels so if the re makes the decision too early when the trigger is given all is released. If the decision is late than the eggs are released erarlier and the follicles are empty. There is medication that re can use to keep eastrogen levels at bay and still carry on stimmulation which stops the bigger ones to release but gives a chance for smaller ones to catch up. A friend of mine had this med from an early stage cause she had lower AMH and she was on the highest dose. She must have responded very very quickly. The re wanted to produce the maximum number of eggs but at a similar size.
During my stimms at the end he kept me for two days without taking any meds at all. Kept checking my levels but just let the eggs mature on their own. Than gave the trigger. I assume that the eggs were growing at a very slow rate and he could control the size of them.
A good re should have a good knowledge to be able to correlate these numbers depending on the egg size and numbers on every individual stimm. The same person may even respond differently to the same amount of drugs at a different time.
Also the embryology team he?she works with must be very good at what they do.

Good drs usually have a good reputation. Patients would mention their name on websites. Or maybe your GP would have heard from the patients. Ask around, look at pregnancy with TX websites. If you know any drs ask them. Cause they would have other dr friends who would know a fertility specialist they can get info from.
xxxxx

 

[lavalux]

There is a website in the U.S. to which all the clinics must report their IVF results by fertilization & live birth rates. Can't recall name but I could find out Missyt if you need me to. Don't know much about their fertility program, but Johns Hopkins is a extremely well regarded teaching hospital.

 

[lavalux]

www.sart.org
Society for Assisted Reproductive Technologies

 

[MommyToBeIsMe]

You can't get any more well respected than John Hopkins...Seriously. I'm in the medical profession, John Hopkins all the way baby!!! I absolutely loved the documentary, "Hopkins". I was addicted to it!!!

Missy, let us know how it goes today.

 

[skye2010]

Wooe! Laura that's a great info ) Thank you hon

Missy really worth checking that website and comparing live birth rates. The IVF BFP doesn't mean much unless since it could end up with mcs. As MTBM and Laura mentioned I'm sure it is a great hospital and they might have a good reproductive unit. Yet still worth checking.
xxx

 

[missyt]

My therapist mentioned Johns Hopkins. It is one of they most well respected hospitals in the U.S. I'm definately going to check out the website. Thanks, Laura. And thanks to all!

 

[Tititimes2]

Hi, ladies! Just popping in to say a quick hello. Hope you all are doing ok and feeling good. Been lurking and checking in on everyone. Skye and Lava so glad to see you and your amazing little ones are doing so great! You must be so excited

never, purple, FM, pad, HA, MA, dwrgi, twinkle, OMM and all the ladies I missed by name, sending you all lots of love and baby dust!

AFM - Gearing up for the holidays. Trying to take it easy and enjoy this time of year. It can be stressful but I promised myself I'd take a different approach to the craziness this year. I picked up my first gift already. Yay! I usually do a Christmas Eve marathon shopping spree and how I manage to get it all done, I don't know but this year I am trying to start early damn it! I want to sing carols and sit by the tree and relax on Christmas Eve this year. So...we'll see if I can get it all done. Any way to you all!